Poll: Merge Antitribbu into base Clans?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

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Creating a metric ton of errata for every card interacting with a clan is not small. The old cards won't go away. Changing them in a systematic way has enormous benefits when people are trying to remember whether Nikolaus Vermeulen works for Camarilla Nosferatu, Anarch Nosferatu, Sabbat Nosferatu, Laibon Nosferatu, Independent Nosferatu, or any other sect that might be implemented or created by White Wolf, or whether Sword of Judgment can be played by Camarilla Brujah, Sabbat Brujah, Laibon Brujah...
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And now you're adding errata to dozens upon dozens of cards to remember on top, at a time when people are trying to revive the card game.

Every time you errata a card in a whimsical manner, you increase the learning curve for newbies. Existing players may well have had to remember more than this, but they're existing players who have done so over a period of years. New players get to cope with that and literally dozens upon dozens of library cards and vampires that may or may not work the way they think.

So, back to the best case scenario of changing only what's too good to make work across the board;
Palla Grande.
Paths are Sabbat only.
Add something about ballots to New Carthage.

Then test.
Obvious problem spots will present themselves, ones we thought were problems but weren't will be seen as such, and then we can evaluate cards.

Also,
I never mention moving Osebo to Bruhah, Ishtari to Torrie, Guruhi to Nos, or Akunanse to gangrel. So laibon of all those (Mozambique Alure?) Would count as themselves for playing whatever is thier clan.

The sect restrictions I threw up there are the ones that would make sense if it were necessary. But other than the 3 cards of obvious concern I just mentioned, ideally Volker could call dogs of war and it allows Amelia to rush Hardestadt. Or Skryta gets Ritual Challenge with stealth from Backways and twisted forest. Or Annabelle Triabelle gives your torries +1 bleed and untaps and then you bleed with Sheila and lolita who both get bleed pump from Palla grande as well

If the resulting powercreep is even across the affected clans, then it's not inherently bad, since multiple clan specific cards reside in the area between barely playable and almost playable.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

So, back to the best case scenario of changing only what's too good to make work across the board;
Palla Grande.
Paths are Sabbat only.
Add something about ballots to New Carthage.

Then test.
Obvious problem spots will present themselves, ones we thought were problems but weren't will be seen as such, and then we can evaluate cards.

Yeah, while it's tempting to better fit old cards within the new framework for thematic reasons, I do agree with James that it's probably best to make the least amount of changes on the least amount of cards, and then get a little bit more specific for a handful of cards.

"Clans and their anti-tribu are now interchangeable. A few cards [ List of cards here ] have been updated to reflect a sect-specific requirement for that clan."

or something to that effect. That being said, testing is key. I know I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of the cardset, errata, and rulings that others have, so it'd be interesting to see where the chips would fall.

VtES should be a good game - any decision about changes should be evaluated on just one scale - will it make the game better or worse. All this talk about setting, costs of players card collections etc are irrelevant.

The more I look at the cards, both library and crypt, the more I think removing the split for the vast majority just works.

Sure, it will duplicate some effects, or create some doubling down on certain tactics, but the end result of that will be the core themes of clans will come out even more strongly. A deck packing both Demonstration and Ventrue HQ will be a stronger vote deck as a result - but Ventrue were already good at that, so it plays up an existing archetype rather than undermining it. Ayelea’s special ability may see a little more play, Kemintiri gets a little stronger, Barbaro can mess about with the Ankara Citadel, etc. - that is, cornercase specials become ever so slightly better.

Cheers
Disco

Disco_Stu wrote:

Sure, it will duplicate some effects, or create some doubling down on certain tactics, but the end result of that will be the core themes of clans will come out even more strongly.

If the duplicate entries (say Hunting Grounds) is deemed broken or problematic then just banning one (or rewriting both so they can't be in play at the same time. Contest?) shouldn't be problematic. But I'd rather avoid banning.


Allt he other distinctions can be handled easily by following wordings:

"Usable only by Camarilla vampire."
"Usable only by Sabbat vampire."


Examples:
"Art Museum
During your influence phase, you may lock this card to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Toreador in your uncontrolled region."

changed to:
"Art Museum
During your influence phase, you may lock this card to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a CAMARILLA Toreador in your uncontrolled region."


"Palla Grande
Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. Toreador antitribu get +1 bleed. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters."

changed to:
"Palla Grande
Put this card in play and put 3 debauchery counters on it. SABBAT Toreador antitribu get +1 bleed. Remove a debauchery counter from this card at the end of each of your turns. Burn this card if it has no counters."

what about anarch, independenant or laibon variants then.

edit:
as I see it (disregarding lore),
antitribu maps to sabbat
non-antitribu maps to non-sabbat, camarilla is a more narrow match

edge case maybe, but for some crypts and may matter