Paying the Cost of Villein

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

It elegantly explains why effects of a card may fail at different points (e.g. Why cancelling cards 'as played' results in 'no payment of cost',

Cancelling a card as it is played results in the cost being paid - unless card text says otherwise. The default is to pay the cost.

For example, with Santaleous, you pay the cost of the master card because his text doesn't tell you not to.


You appear to be trying to change the rules without understanding the current rules.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Cancelling a card as it is played results in the cost being paid - unless card text says otherwise. The default is to pay the cost.

Here you made a mistake, you never pay the pool/blood cost of cancelled cards.

Smaul wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Cancelling a card as it is played results in the cost being paid - unless card text says otherwise. The default is to pay the cost.

Here you made a mistake, you never pay the pool/blood cost of cancelled cards.

Incorrect, as I mentioned earlier in this thread:

[LSJ 20090601] wrote:

If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid.

That is only meant for delaying tactics which does not cancel a card but cancels a referendum.
Following your canceling cards posts, a cancelled card is never paid. That means, you never pay cost of cancelled cards, Cancelling a referendum is not the same as cancelling a card.
In case of primal instincts, the card does not cancel the strike card, cancels the strike.
In case of Santaleous, if you play a pentex and santaleous cancels it, it shouldn´t be paid, as you never get to the step of the resolution, and his hability sais nothing about not paying.
To cancel a card is not the same as cancelling an "effect", so "You never pay pool for a cancelled card", still I think it is a valid statemenet

jamesatzephyr wrote:

You appear to be trying to change the rules without understanding the current rules.

There is more than one way to 'cancel' in VTES. Broadly they fit into two categories... those that cancel the effect and those that cancel the card itself. While not all of the texts are identical in their wording, the net effects of these cards fit into these two categories: Cancel the Card as Played, Cancel the Effect of a Card.

Cancel the Card As Played: Key examples are DI, Bleeding the Vine, Charismatic Aura, etc. These cards do not require the cost to be paid for the cancelled effect/card. These would be the kind of card I would suggest (if we are going to reword them into two unified categories) that would be the "Cancel the Card" (the card is prevented from ever resolving and no cost is ever paid for the card).

Cancel the Effect of a Card: Key examples are Aye's cancel effect, Santaleous, Abombwe's Reflex cards that cancel Frenzies, Groundfighting, I am Legion, etc. These cards are clearly intended to nullify the effects of a card, but not prevent the card being played; so in a "Cancel the Effect" category (costs are paid but the card does nothing).


Regarding the other element (and realistically the main element I was getting at in the previous posts)

6.2.3. Resolve the Action

If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place. If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). The effects of the action do not take place when the action is blocked. Note that the action's cost, if any, is only paid if the action succeeds; the cost is not paid if the action is blocked. The costs of action modifiers and reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played, regardless of the success of the action.

This is the only section of the rulebook which has anything to do with the resolution of cards. If you look in the "Rules Reference" (which has 3 sections for the resolution of cards but is not mirrored by any statement in the rulebook except 6.2.3) you find the following:

Pay cost and resolve effect (unless canceled in step B ).

1) For actions
a) Wait until action resolution to pay cost and resolve (if successful). (IV.D.2)
b) If the action succeeds but the effect (or part of the effect) is no longer valid/legal (because the target leaves play, for example), the cost, if any, is still paid (since the action resolves unblocked) but the invalid portion of the action "fizzles" (is not applied).
c) If the action succeeds but the cost cannot be paid, whatever portion of the cost that can be paid is paid and the action "fizzles" (has no effect) instead.
d) The action card is "in limbo" (not in play and not in the ash heap) until it is put in play or sent to the ash heap (or removed from play) at resolution. [RTR]
2) For strike cards
a) Pay cost.
b) Wait until strike resolution to resolve. (VI.C.2)
c) The strike card is "in limbo" until it is put in play or sent to the ash heap (or removed from play) at resolution. [RTR]
3) For all other cards, pay cost to resolve effect immediately.
a) Pay cost.
b) Resolve effect.
c) Action modifiers and reaction cards that may be put in play depending on the success of the action (or of a block attempt) are "in limbo" until that is determined. [RTR]

May I draw your attention to 3). "Pay cost to resolve effect immediately". There are 3 steps in 3), 3a) Payment of cost, 3b) resolve effect.

As I have said before, this structure clearly implies that the cost MUST be paid before the immediate resolution of the card. It is not the payment and resolution of the effect which is immediate (or even simultaneous). It is that once the card has been paid (3a) you then immediately resolve its effect (3b). VTES does not create a "stack" where effects are placed and then resolved in a sequence; hence the "resolve effect immediately".

So, as I mentioned before, these three different versions can all be compressed into a single sequence which is just as easily explained and also allows for simplicity in future rulings on the payment of card costs when they are cancelled (e.g. If paying for a Villein would equal my pool, am I ousted? Do I pay the cost for a card cancelled 'as played'?). Since 'pay for the card' would be its own discrete step, any cancel cards that target the effects occur after payment and those that target "as played" would occur before payment.

1. Play the card and declare all aspects of that card play (the "As Played" window)
2. Replaced the played card (unless otherwise directed)
3. Check if the played card was successful (for Actions, this is the usual Intercept vs Stealth Window and is far more protracted than all other cards)
4. Pay for the card (For Actions: 1a, For Strikes: 2a, For Others: 3a) and also incorporating the current rulings on Partial Payment of cards that were legally declared in Step 1.
5. Resolve the Effect of the card (For Actions: 1a-c), For Strikes: 2b), For Others: 3b-c) )

Smaul wrote:

That is only meant for delaying tactics which does not cancel a card but cancels a referendum.
Following your canceling cards posts, a cancelled card is never paid. That means, you never pay cost of cancelled cards, Cancelling a referendum is not the same as cancelling a card.
In case of primal instincts, the card does not cancel the strike card, cancels the strike.
In case of Santaleous, if you play a pentex and santaleous cancels it, it shouldn´t be paid, as you never get to the step of the resolution, and his hability sais nothing about not paying.
To cancel a card is not the same as cancelling an "effect", so "You never pay pool for a cancelled card", still I think it is a valid statemenet

The problem is that a number of the cards which say "Cancel a Card" result in the cancelling of its effect. (Basically an inconsistency in wording that is in the game over time).

The Abombwe cards which cancel a Frenzy are the easiest example of a "Cancel a Card" without cancelling the cost. I agree that they should have potentially been written from the start to say "Cancel the effect of a Frenzy card" and not "Cancel a Frenzy Card"... but they do not mention the cost of that card so they must only be cancelling the effect of the card and not the act of playing the card (unlike say DI).

Delaying Tactics specifically says it cancels a Referendum, which sets it apart. Like Gangrel Conspiracy and a few others that specifically target things like Bloodhunts or Referendums.