Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

Xaddam wrote:

It's not a particularly big barrier and demanding it for tournament play doesn't seem too excessive, I don't think.

And yet an awful lot of folks would object to such a notion. As they don't like using sleeves. For any number of reasons (I, for one, kind of object to sleeves on the ground that it is very difficult to actually shuffle decks in sleeves; I have been to many an event where someone at the table is "shuffling" their deck with sleeves into "randomized" piles, and then they stack them up and do a bit of overhand stack shuffling, and call it done. And all I can think is "man. That deck is not remotely shuffled enough..."). Requiring them seems like a horrible idea. Especially given that the likelihood of someone trying to cheat by virtue of mixed card backs is really low in the first place. And it is incredibly easy to cheat with sleeved cards anyway.

If it was a real hassle, I could see your point. But as it is sleeving takes 10 minutes and costs you 10 dollars the first time.

The hassle or cost isn't the issue. It is just something some people don't like. And as it doesn't actually solve anything (it is very easy to cheat using sleeves if you are concerned about cheating), mandating it is a questionable idea.

Also, during tournament play I think we should value the integrity of the competition over our insecurities.

Which is why mandatory sleeving is a silly idea.

henrik wrote:

Do you have any proof of this?
I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.

I wouldn't necessarily say it is *easier* to cheat with sleeves (although it is certainly easier to cheat in some ways with sleeves), but it is *easy* to cheat with sleeves:

-Nick corners of sleeves intentionally to indicate a specific type of card. Very difficult to notice if you aren't looking for it.

-Get very similar but slightly different sleeves and use the difference to indicate a specific type of card (I do use sleeves on my crypt; I generally use just featureless black sleeves. Different brands of featureless black sleeves, for example, often are slightly different in terms of size or finish, such that they look almost the same, but if you know there is a difference, you can easily pick out the difference).

-Intentionally stick cards together; if you slightly moisten the face of the sleeve on your Giant's Blood when mixing your deck and make sure it lands on top of a Villein, you can easily get them to cling together.

I realize that the obvious card back differences can lead to people having information that they shouldn't, but if one assumes that everyone is playing in good faith, and that if they are using mixed backs, they are using reasonably varied cards with mixed backs, it isn't a problem. And if one realizes that it is at the very least just as easy to cheat with sleeved cards and not sleeved cards if one is inclined to cheat, one will probably come to the conclusion that mandating sleeves on decks isn't really a solution to anything.

Xaddam wrote:

Did you try shuffling sleeves with artwork or a pattern? They're really bad, I agree. If you tried it with single-sheet back, I guess we can only agree to disagree. Shuffling with proper sleeves is so much easier than without sleeves.

I bridge shuffle. So far as I know, it's not possible to bridge shuffle a 70 or 80 card deck with sleeves. If it is possible, I can't do it.

Xaddam wrote:

I mean competition in the meaning of the tournament rules, games and scene. Which would indeed be 'the latter'. I see you're being intentionally inflammatory. I'm sure you know why I think mixing jyhad backings with vtes backings might be misused. How do you mean sleeves facilitates cheating? (Which can't be proven after the fact, of course.)

You'll know when I'm being inflammatory. This isn't it.

This isn't the first time this has been discussed:

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6de21e726aa4cdd0

It's easier to cheat with sleeves because people are less likely to notice marked sleeves than marked cards or cards with different backs. It's more likely that people who want to cheat by marking cards/sleeves will do so with sleeves, because that doesn't degrade the condition of their cards.

henrik wrote:

Do you have any proof of this?

Nope. I have deductive reasoning. Unless someone got cheating, there'd be no way to have proof of this one way or the other. So unless you have proof that I'm wrong, you're not getting any traction with this line of argument.

henrik wrote:

I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.

Which, as I point out above, you'd be more likely to get caught doing, and less ways to weasel out of consequences if you did get caught. I've had to throw away numerous sleeves during play due to wear that I hadn't noticed until I was playing, but if every Final Nights card in my deck is Card X and I've got no non-FN copies of Card X in my deck? And that pattern repeats with other set/card combinations? Whole lot less chance of that occuring randomly.

bakija wrote:

-Nick corners of sleeves intentionally to indicate a specific type of card. Very difficult to notice if you aren't looking for it.

-Get very similar but slightly different sleeves and use the difference to indicate a specific type of card (I do use sleeves on my crypt; I generally use just featureless black sleeves. Different brands of featureless black sleeves, for example, often are slightly different in terms of size or finish, such that they look almost the same, but if you know there is a difference, you can easily pick out the difference).

Both of these things can be done without sleeves as well, just as easily as with sleeves. None of them are allowed by tournament rules. It's not a issue in the sleeve/no sleeve debate, it's a problem with cheating in general.

bakija wrote:

-Intentionally stick cards together; if you slightly moisten the face of the sleeve on your Giant's Blood when mixing your deck and make sure it lands on top of a Villein, you can easily get them to cling together.

You're allowed to shuffle the other players deck when offered before the game. Do this every game and it can't happen.

I realize that the obvious card back differences can lead to people having information that they shouldn't, but if one assumes that everyone is playing in good faith,

In which case we wouldn't need any enforcement at all. Of course we should have rules which makes it impossible to cheat, if they are functioning as intended and they're not too cumbersome.

and that if they are using mixed backs, they are using reasonably varied cards with mixed backs, it isn't a problem.

I know I could easily make a deck which would pass inspection by judge but when playing I will have a lot of free information by the time I've drawn 2/3:d of the deck. If I know I can easily do it, then anyone who wants to can do it as well. (of course, I use sleeves to make it impossible for me to unintentionally gain free information)

And if one realizes that it is at the very least just as easy to cheat with sleeved cards and not sleeved cards if one is inclined to cheat, one will probably come to the conclusion that mandating sleeves on decks isn't really a solution to anything.

Logical fallacy. Just because we can't find a perfect solution doesn't mean we shouldn't settle for a better-than-what-we-have but imperfection solution.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy

Xaddam wrote:

Logical fallacy. Just because we can't find a perfect solution doesn't mean we shouldn't settle for a better-than-what-we-have but imperfection solution.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy

From your cited source: "This is a classic example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes."

In this case, "there are people who don't want to sleeve their decks" is one of those component elements. Given that I don't think there's much/any cheating going on at VTES tables, and don't much care if there is, instituting a new rule which inconveniences people and isn't necessarily going to achieve its stated goal doesn't make much sense.

Xaddam wrote:

Both of these things can be done without sleeves as well, just as easily as with sleeves. None of them are allowed by tournament rules. It's not a issue in the sleeve/no sleeve debate, it's a problem with cheating in general.

Given that you acknowledge that it is just as easy to cheat with sleeves as it is without, what is mandating sleeves doing to prevent cheating?

The only thing you can do to prevent people from cheating is to catch people cheating and then call them on it. That has nothing to do with sleeves or not sleeves.

You're allowed to shuffle the other players deck when offered before the game. Do this every game and it can't happen.

Do you shuffle every single player's deck at the table at the start of every game? Honestly?

I don't. As I don't really worry about it. As I believe that the vast, vast majority of people playing VTES are not actively trying to cheat. And as I believe that this is the case, I'm not really worried about enforcing rules to prevent people from cheating. As most people aren't trying to cheat in the first place.

In which case we wouldn't need any enforcement at all. Of course we should have rules which makes it impossible to cheat, if they are functioning as intended and they're not too cumbersome.

We already have all the rules we need to prevent cheating--if you discover someone cheating, call them on it. We don't need any other rules to prevent cheating.

I know I could easily make a deck which would pass inspection by judge but when playing I will have a lot of free information by the time I've drawn 2/3:d of the deck. If I know I can easily do it, then anyone who wants to can do it as well. (of course, I use sleeves to make it impossible for me to unintentionally gain free information)

And yet as you apparently realize that you can use sleeves to intentionally gain free information as easily as you can without sleeves, what is mandating sleeves accomplishing?