Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
10 Jan 2013 13:42 #43876
by Sérgio
Shortcuts in VtES Official Games was created by Sérgio
I don't consider this a straight rules question (more like policy) , although it seemed beneficial to post it here, in the forum.
I'd also like to state that for the purpose of this discussion, I'm considering shortcuts the usage of words/names not used in the rules book and the shortening/skipping of phases.
I believe any game, when played enough times, earns shortcuts and I was thinking exactly what is the policy for shortcuts in official/sancioned play (tourneys)?
VtES has one of the most intricate and complex turn structures in all card games and its speed can be greatly improved by the use of shortcuts – I know my playgroup uses them and they don't even realize it, for the most part. Until someone needs the impulse for Madness Network, that is.
Thanks in advance,
Sérgio
I'd also like to state that for the purpose of this discussion, I'm considering shortcuts the usage of words/names not used in the rules book and the shortening/skipping of phases.
I believe any game, when played enough times, earns shortcuts and I was thinking exactly what is the policy for shortcuts in official/sancioned play (tourneys)?
VtES has one of the most intricate and complex turn structures in all card games and its speed can be greatly improved by the use of shortcuts – I know my playgroup uses them and they don't even realize it, for the most part. Until someone needs the impulse for Madness Network, that is.
Thanks in advance,
Sérgio
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10 Jan 2013 13:53 - 10 Jan 2013 14:00 #43880
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
The policy for shortcuts is: avoid them as much as you can.
As a judge, I don't give extra time to players who call me because they skipped a phase. That might be harsh, but at least they don't do it again (and play the game properly).
My experience as an EC judge (3 ECs, that's about 150*3*2=1200 games ) is that more than 70% of the calls are due to people skipping/forgetting phases "to gain time".
Example:
A: "Carrion Crows." Waits 2 secs as B remains silent.
Start clock here.
A: "Long Range with Aid from Bats."
B: "Wait. I wanted to play Drawing Out the Beast."
A: "But we're in the maneuver step now..."
C: "Yeah, it's too late. A's played his card..."
D: "But he shouldn't be denied the option to play Drawing Out the Beast!"
E (the wise guy): "You know what? Let's call a judge to settle this."
E calls the judge.
Add 5 sec till judge comes over.
E: "See, judge, A plays Carrion Crows, waited 2 seconds, B said nothing. Then A played Aid from Bats, but B said he wanted to play Drawing Out the Beast."
Judge (takes some time to analyse): "Ok. Rollback. A, take your Aid from Bats back in your hand. You are now in the Before Range step, A has passed, B now has the impulse."
Stop clock here.
Now, the only question is: Is that sequence of chatting longer than B saying "Wait a second.", or B saying "No pre's." or B saying "Drawing Out the Beast." ?
If the answer is "No", then, perhaps (in tournaments where the judge can be here in 5 secs) skipping the Before Range step could be an option.
Otherwise, it isn't.
As a judge, I don't give extra time to players who call me because they skipped a phase. That might be harsh, but at least they don't do it again (and play the game properly).
My experience as an EC judge (3 ECs, that's about 150*3*2=1200 games ) is that more than 70% of the calls are due to people skipping/forgetting phases "to gain time".
Example:
A: "Carrion Crows." Waits 2 secs as B remains silent.
Start clock here.
A: "Long Range with Aid from Bats."
B: "Wait. I wanted to play Drawing Out the Beast."
A: "But we're in the maneuver step now..."
C: "Yeah, it's too late. A's played his card..."
D: "But he shouldn't be denied the option to play Drawing Out the Beast!"
E (the wise guy): "You know what? Let's call a judge to settle this."
E calls the judge.
Add 5 sec till judge comes over.
E: "See, judge, A plays Carrion Crows, waited 2 seconds, B said nothing. Then A played Aid from Bats, but B said he wanted to play Drawing Out the Beast."
Judge (takes some time to analyse): "Ok. Rollback. A, take your Aid from Bats back in your hand. You are now in the Before Range step, A has passed, B now has the impulse."
Stop clock here.
Now, the only question is: Is that sequence of chatting longer than B saying "Wait a second.", or B saying "No pre's." or B saying "Drawing Out the Beast." ?
If the answer is "No", then, perhaps (in tournaments where the judge can be here in 5 secs) skipping the Before Range step could be an option.
Otherwise, it isn't.
Last edit: 10 Jan 2013 14:00 by Pascal Bertrand.
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10 Jan 2013 14:18 #43884
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
Now, sometimes, I agree it's pointless to go through each and every step.
If Madness Network / Enkil Cog / The Ankou aren't in play, the "Do you want to perform actions during my minion phase" chatting can be skipped. But only then. Don't assume the guy with the Madness Network / Enkil Cog will only use it to bleed during his predator's turn - he might want to use it before it gets contested. Or before having to tap to Telepathic Misdirection. Etc.
It would be OK to skip a player's "before range" step, if that player announced explicitely "I will not play a single before range card of the rest of the game." (but still, cards such as Frenzy (scarcely played, I recon) make this more difficult to deal with).
If Madness Network / Enkil Cog / The Ankou aren't in play, the "Do you want to perform actions during my minion phase" chatting can be skipped. But only then. Don't assume the guy with the Madness Network / Enkil Cog will only use it to bleed during his predator's turn - he might want to use it before it gets contested. Or before having to tap to Telepathic Misdirection. Etc.
It would be OK to skip a player's "before range" step, if that player announced explicitely "I will not play a single before range card of the rest of the game." (but still, cards such as Frenzy (scarcely played, I recon) make this more difficult to deal with).
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10 Jan 2013 14:21 #43887
by Boris The Blade
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic Re: Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
The problem here is that by saying "wait a second.", B is leaking the information that he has something to play (of course, he could be bluffing), so while B is thinking about playing his card, he certainly does not want to ask for time.Now, the only question is: Is that sequence of chatting longer than B saying "Wait a second.", or B saying "No pre's." or B saying "Drawing Out the Beast." ?
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10 Jan 2013 14:29 #43890
by Ohlmann
Just bluff half the time anyway. Or each time you want your opponent to think the combat important.
Replied by Ohlmann on topic Re: Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
The problem here is that by saying "wait a second.", B is leaking the information that he has something to play (of course, he could be bluffing), so while B is thinking about playing his card, he certainly does not want to ask for time.
Just bluff half the time anyway. Or each time you want your opponent to think the combat important.
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10 Jan 2013 14:30 #43891
by KevinM
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
Replied by KevinM on topic Re: Shortcuts in VtES Official Games
A sounds like either the worst player in the world, or a big fat filthy cheater.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
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