Bleeding to oust with Lorrie Dunsirn at 1 pool

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

@PB:
I have no problem with the "simultaneous oust" clause. If you die and your prey also dies... you get 1VP, your pred gets 1VP + 6 pool. Fine.

Why is Lorrie Dunsirn's cost treated differently to the cost of a Master card?

It isn't.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Both are costs required to be paid in full before effects.

Either Lorrie can't oust you if you oust your prey with Lorrie (giving you 6 pool) because the effects of the bleed (i.e. the oust) occur simultaneously...

OR

Eternals of Sirius can oust you if you use it on 4 pool.

They are both "costs". Why should we be handling the cost of a Master Card in pool differently to another cost in pool?

The "(giving you 6 pool)" part is wrong.
You only gain pool for ousting your prey when you're not ousted at the same time (that's the quote I gave from the Rulebook). You DO NOT gain these 6 pool if ousting your prey happens when you're ousted too (classic example of simultaneoust : Anarchist Uprising)

It seems "you and your prey are being ousted at the same time" fully applies to Lorrie's bleed for 1 when both you and your prey are on 1 pool.

Other example: Personal Involvement when you and your prey are on 3 pool:
[LSJ 20090414] wrote:

> Player A and B both have 3 pool. Player A plys Personal Involvement on
> B, what happens, are both ousted or does B survive as PI checks for
> pool difference after A is ousted and then the card has no effect? Or
> if it does, can he cancel the card as it is played to only take 2
> pool? Will A still be ousted then?


Both are ousted.

The last part of any effect in VtES is checking if anyone is dead.

I thought that the cost was paid when the action was successful. Immediately afterwards the effects of the action are resolved. In other words, I thought that success/failure was a distinct step from resolution, at least as far as actions are concerned.

What about the following scenario?:

Lorrie's controller, player A, has 1 pool. Player A's prey, player B, has 3 pool and a Red List minion with Fame. In his master phase, Player A marks Player B's Red List minion. During Player A's minion phase, Lorrie successfully takes the Red List rush action. If combat were to occur, Lorrie would send the Famed Red List minion to torpor, thus dealing 3 pool damage to Player B and ousting him.

The Red List rush action costs 1 blood and 1 pool in this case. Paying the pool would oust Player A. AFAIK, the blood cost of the Red List rush is paid before the combat occurs.

Would Player A still get to resolve the action (namely entering combat) before paying the pool cost and being ousted?

Well, how I see it, you do pay the cost AFTER you succesfully bleed, but before the check who is alive.

In combat situations you pay whatever cost to ENTER the combat, hence you pay it when you ENTER, that is before any of combat phases occur.

As a sidenote it is not so, when you enter combat and Obedience is played against you. You still have to pay the cost. RTR 19991206

@PB:

So explain why the two costs result in 'different ousts'?
All you've said is "We've ruled one to do X and another to do Y" there is no logical pattern to it.

Yes, I have read the rulebook. Yes, I do know the simultaneous oust rule. Yes, it is obvious with cards like Anarchist Uprising/Domain Challenge.

So,

1) Where in the rulebook/CRR does it state that 'checking for being ousted' occurs only AFTER resolving a card and not when the card is paid for?

i.e. If Lorrie Dunsirn had instead called Autarkis Persecution and not taken an action which would oust your prey, would you be ousted?

2) Where in the rulebook/CRR does it state that ousting is not part of a card resolution?

i.e. Tensions in the Ranks + Force of Will bleed + ousting your prey while you are on 1 pool... is this a simultaneous oust or not? If so why so and if not why not? In addition, how is this process different to playing Eternals of Sirius when on 4 pool?