About Dual Form and its chaining

Hi. Could someone clarify this?

Vampire A plays Dual Form at PRO, creating B. B plays Dual Form at PRO, creating C. What happens to A and C if B leaves the ready region? Are both burned? Neither?

Dual Form
Action
+1 stealth action.
[pro] Untap this vampire. During this minion phase, you may untap this vampire again.
[PRO] This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, the other is burned.

They are all burned.

Hi. I was told by a judge that vampire A would be 'immunized' by the creation, by B, of the vampire C (or vice-versa; I didn't understand then, do even less now). Is there an official answer on the subject?

A and C would be burned.

See "Card Rulings" for Dual Form:

Dual Form:
If one of the pair leaves the ready region, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. That burning of the other won't cause the first to burn. [LSJ 20050117]

When B leaves the ready region (e.g., goes to torpor), card text from Dual Form triggers to burn A and C. But the burning of A and C does not cause a chain effect that also would burn B.

So, if B leaves the ready region, both A and C are burned. However, if A leaves the ready region, only B is burned; nothing happens to C. If C leaves the ready region, B is burned; nothing happens to A.
Thanks.

makish wrote:

So, if B leaves the ready region, both A and C are burned. However, if A leaves the ready region, only B is burned; nothing happens to C. If C leaves the ready region, B is burned; nothing happens to A.
Thanks.

Incorrect.

A creates B. B creates C.

If A goes to torpor, B is burned. Since B is burned, C is then burned. A remains in torpor.

If A is burned, B is burned. Since B is burned, C is then burned. All three have been burned.

If B goes to torpor, card text from both Dual Forms (A->B and B->C) triggers at the same time, so the acting Methuselah orders the two simultaneous effects. (The order may be relevant for some other effect.) A is burned, and C is burned. But B remains in torpor.

If B is burned, card text from both Dual Forms triggers at the same time, so the acting Methuselah orders the two simultaneous effects. A is burned, and C is burned (or the other way round). And B has already been burned.

If C goes to torpor, B is burned. Since B is burned, A is then burned. C remains in torpor.

If C is burned, B is burned. Since B is burned, A is then burned. All three have been burned.

[LSJ 20050117]
In this example, A creates A1. A1 creates B1.

LSJ wrote:

> no. It's a chain effect. If B1 goes away, so does A1. And if A1 goes away, A
> does the same. And if A leaves, A2 does too.

Correct. The first to fall to torpor falls to torpor. The rest are burned
(either in direct relation to the one falling into torpor, or as part of
a chain from that one).

A creates B. B creates C. A creates X. A creates Y. X creates Z.

C goes to torpor. Since C has left the ready region, B is burned. Since B is burned, A is burned. Since A is burned, X and Y both burn in some order chosen by the acting Methuselah. Say, Y first. Y is burned. X is burned. Since X is burned, Z is burned. And C remains in torpor.


TL;DR: If the first vampire goes to torpor, all the ones connected to it burn, even ones which are connected via an elaborate family tree, and it remains in torpor. If the first vampire is burned, all the ones connected to it burn, even ones which are connected via an elaborate family tree.

Even shorter: Don't chain Dual Forms if your vampires are going to get crapped on.