Inceptor & Mal/Str cards

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Ok here's the logic behind it. You may put any three cards on Inceptor, knock yourself out. You must meet the requirements of the card to play it, which Inceptor cannot help you with if it is not a discipline. Striga and Mal are not a discipline, therefore you do not gain the ability to play those cards through Inceptor.

Agreed, this is what I said.

Pascal, thanks for the official confirmation.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Ok here's the logic behind it... You must meet the requirements of the card to play it, which Inceptor cannot help you with if it is not a discipline.

I appreciate the effort to help me see the Light of Natural Reason as set forth in the Rulebook, but I have to disagree with you. Not with your interpretation of what happens in this situation, obviously. I just disagree that we're in any way talking about "logic." It's not logic. It's an agreed-upon convention with which any given player may or may not be familiar.

Here's the logic behind saying it's not logic:

There's a rule that you must meet the requirements of a card to play it. (1.6.1.3; see also 1.6.3)

But there's also a rule that says that card text takes precedence over the rules. (1.4)

You're telling me that 1.6.1.3 takes precedence over Inceptor's wording, which says:

This vampire may play other copies of these cards as if he or she had the Discipline required (if any) at superior.

Since Striga cards don't require a discipline, we can ignore the whole second "as if" clause. It's a perfectly reasonable (although, as it happens, incorrect) reading of Inceptor to say that the Vampire can play other copies of these cards, with that ability taking precedence under Rule 1.4 over rule 1.6.1.3.

So to make the ruling one of "logic", you must assume (correctly) that the "may play" language of Inceptor is subordinate to 1.6.1.3.

And that's an allowable assumption -- because that's the convention. But the one thing it's not is a logical extension of the rules or the card text, which by themselves do not tell us which way to resolve this particular situation.

Agree with Legendre.

Legendre wrote:

So to make the ruling one of "logic", you must assume (correctly) that the "may play" language of Inceptor is subordinate to 1.6.1.3.

No, it's just that you're reading half a sentence on a card and claiming that that means something it doesn't, when the whole sentence says something different. This is true even if you underline some of the words to try and distract people from the whole sentence. Similarly, we don't play Eyes of the Serpent and read it as saying "This acting minion cannot be blocked by allies until the end of this action ." Which is what you're doing with the card text here.


You may play the cards as if you met the discipline requirement (if any). This isn't "You may play the cards irrespective of every other rule in the game."

• If the card requires an anarch and you're not an anarch, you can't play it, even though you meet the discipline requirement.
• If you don't have the blood to pay for the card, you can't play the card. But but but the card text says "This vampire may play other copies of these cards" so I have to be able to play the card even though I can't afford it, right?
• If the card requires a clan that you're not, you can't play the card. But the card says "This vampire may play other copies of these cards" so I have to be able to play the card, right? RIGHT?
• If the card requires an ally and you're a vampire, you can't play the card. But how can you not see that the card tells me right there I can play it? It says "MAY PLAY", look at only those two words and I'm right, right?

If we wish to split semantic hairs here... then "may" and "can" are not equivalent.

"May" implies a permission to, or some allowance.
"Can" implies capability.

The old stupid joke of Student: "Can I go to the toilet teacher?" T: "Well I hope you can, you're old enough to be at school!".

That Inceptor says the minion MAY play copies does not say that it CAN play copies UNLESS those copies require disciplines (if any are required).

So, the logic is rather simple.

1) You may put any three cards you wish onto Inceptor. Inceptor does not care which cards you choose to place on it.

2) You have permission to play those cards, and those cards only, AS IF the minion had the REQUIRED DISCIPLINES if that card requires disciplines.

3) If those cards do NOT require disciplines, then Inceptor cannot help you play them.

So to conclude the logic from those three premises you get these two statements.

A: Inceptor will let you fake any Superior Discipline, including all those quasi-broken Bloodlines Disciplines like Temporis, required to play the cards placed on Inceptor.

B: Inceptor will NOT let you fake anything that is NOT a Discipline (since it is AS IF the minion had the REQUIRED DISCIPLINES at Superior (if any)). Since Mal & Str are NOT Required Disciplines (they are Required Non-Disciplines) they cannot be faked by Inceptor. This is similar to if the card required Black Hand, Seraph or a specific Clan.