Stealing a title

I have a question about the "steal a title" mechanic wich exist in Mithras :

Mithras
Ventrue capa 11
DOM FOR POT PRE QUI
Camarilla. If Mithras has no title and is camarilla, he can steal a title from a Camarilla vampire as a +1 stealth D action.
During a referendum, he can burn 1 blood to get +2 votes.
+1 strength. + 2 bleed

He seems to be able to steal a toreador justicar title for example or a malkavian inner circle title which he can't have.

What happen then ?

Does the title become inert ? Is it even possible to attempt the action ?

The question is for Mithras which is a storyline vampire but it could be possible to have something with this kind of text in future set (why not?) and a mechanich could arise which allow to steal calebros title without being camarilla.

Calebros, The Martyr
[obf]
[pot]
[ANI]

[Nosferatu] Nosferatu

Capacity: 5

Group: 2

Camarilla Prince of New York: If Calebros is the Prince of New York, any older Camarilla vampire controlled by another Methuselah can steal the title from him as a action that Calebros cannot block.

Just for the record, here is the quote from the rulebook about inert titles :

If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes appropriately.

In the example above, Mithras never changes to a clan inappropriate for his title, he just never is of the appropriate clan. The difference seems important to me because of the "Lucita clan impersonates in lasombra is still independant" ruling.

EDITH : I guess it is similar to mata hari playing a praxis seizure ?

Would not him become the ventrue inner circle or justicar? Even stealing another clan's title?

Wand wrote:

Would not him become the ventrue inner circle or justicar? Even stealing another clan's title?

No. If you're Ventrue Clan Justicar by virtue of being Democritus or by virtue of passing a Ventrue Justicar referendum on that vampire, you are Ventrue Justicar. You're not just any old Justicar who happens to be a Ventrue. If Democritus Clan Impersonates to Toreador, his Ventrue Justicar title goes inert until he resumes being a Ventrue. While Toreador, he doesn't count as a Justicar, except for the purpose of contesting the title (he immediately yields instead of contesting it) or if he receives a new title, then the inert Ventrue Justicar is immediately yielded.




As to the original question, my answer is: I don't know. In a tournament situation where I didn't know the answer, I would probably rule that you couldn't steal it, but I wouldn't be 100% confident. I would probably rule similarly if Mithras was the wrong sect for some reason (Clan Impersonation, Into the Fire etc.), because of rulebook 10:

Rulebook, wrote:

A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title.

And if you're a Sabbat Mithras stealing a Primogen title, that would seem to require you to be Camarilla to receive it. That exact wording only applies to sect and - in a tournament situation - I would probably rule analogously for clan, which says:

Rulebook, wrote:

Only Camarilla vampires can hold the Camarilla titles primogen, prince, justicar and Inner Circle member.

But we also know from 10 that a Sabbat Democritus is sitll sort-of semi-holding the Justicar title - but it's inert. But it seems sort of close. And I still wouldn't be 100% confident.

I had the wrong cardtext and I corrected it : he can't do is action without being camarilla.

but actually, I would have ruled it otherwise (without being 100% confident). I would have ruled it as : the target lose is title which becomes inert on Mithras.

Timo wrote:

but actually, I would have ruled it otherwise (without being 100% confident). I would have ruled it as : the target lose is title which becomes inert on Mithras.

I'd basically want to treat it like trying to elect a Sabbat Brujah to Brujah Justicar - can't hold or receive the title, so you can't announce terms for a referendum that would do it. It would probably seem unnecessarily fiddly to have a situation where sect-based and clan-(and-sect)-based titles worked differently in a fiddly fashion for no reason. I don't see that treating them in subtly different ways adds to the game in a useful fashion.

And then, assuming that general principle held, it should apply to voluntarily announcing an action that causes you to become Toreador Justicar when you're Nosferatu.