Double Velvet Tongue - "cannot cast votes or ballots"

I don't think so...

Rulebook wrote:

A minion's votes and ballots can be used only when the minion is ready.

I would think that "used" is different than "cast" and even if voes are cast, he can be cancelled and I think going to torpor will cancelled votes because they can't be "used"

Hmm.. A vampire in torpor brings no vote/ballot to his/her controller.
The only change between "going to torpor forces you to abstain" vs "going to torpor nullifies whatever votes/ballots you have/get" would be things like Scorn of Adonis / Bribes.

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

I'd agree with "Once cast, stay cast excluding Golden Rule of Cards" (i.e. Telepathic Vote Counting, etc).

This would open the door for things such as Telepathic Vote Counting to change votes that were cast by a minion now in torpor.

Pascal wrote:

Hmm.. A vampire in torpor brings no vote/ballot to his/her controller.
The only change between "going to torpor forces you to abstain" vs "going to torpor nullifies whatever votes/ballots you have/get" would be things like Scorn of Adonis / Bribes.

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

As I understand your answer, you say that in the case described by James (with Epikasta and Alexandra), Epikasta has cast votes but now, her votes are nullify so she has 0 votes. I guess it is fine and "easy" to understand/remember...

Pascal wrote:

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

To add to the matter (from the point of view of "Hey, if we're thinking about this, let's think about it all at once" rather than trying to rebut anyone specifically):

Methuselah A calls a referendum. Let's say something innocuous like Praxis Seizure: Seattle.
Methuselah B casts some votes against - either from vampires or from non-vampires (e.g. tapping Ventrue HQ, burning the edge,).
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B self-ousts by spending pool on the Business Pressure (and the self oust is legal).
Methuselah B is ousted immediately. [LSJ 20060211]

What (if anything) happens to Methuselah B's votes, from minions and non-minion sources?



Similar situation:

Meth A calls a vote.
Several Methuselahs (A, B, C, D, E) cast a vote using Vox Senis controlled by Methuselah B. Relevant card text: "Put this card in play. Each Methuselah gets an additional vote during each referendum."
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B - who controls the Vox Senis - self-ousts.

What, if anything, happens to the votes already cast by Methuselahs using the Vox Senis?

Same Vox Senis scenario. Methuselah D hasn't got involved in the referendum at the point Methuelah A plays Business Pressure and Methuselah B self-ousts. When was Methuselah D granted the additional vote? Is it still there, lingering on him as an optional vote to be cast, even though Vox Senis is no longer in play? Is it something that the Methuselah 'gets' only when that Methuselah casts it, and now can't be used?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Similar situation:

Meth A calls a vote.
Several Methuselahs (A, B, C, D, E) cast a vote using Vox Senis controlled by Methuselah B. Relevant card text: "Put this card in play. Each Methuselah gets an additional vote during each referendum."
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B - who controls the Vox Senis - self-ousts.

What, if anything, happens to the votes already cast by Methuselahs using the Vox Senis?

Same Vox Senis scenario. Methuselah D hasn't got involved in the referendum at the point Methuelah A plays Business Pressure and Methuselah B self-ousts. When was Methuselah D granted the additional vote? Is it still there, lingering on him as an optional vote to be cast, even though Vox Senis is no longer in play? Is it something that the Methuselah 'gets' only when that Methuselah casts it, and now can't be used?

In this situation, I think it is similar to modifying the number of vote a vampire have :

mehusalah cast "their votes" which are at this point 1 due to Vox Senis and then Vox Senis is not there anymore so the number of vote a meth has is now 0.