times Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

11 Aug 2011 19:15 - 11 Aug 2011 19:17 #7933 by Pascal Bertrand

The rule you cite doesn't really say what technically happens when a minion in combat is no longer ready. "combat ends" has a specific effect: go to step E. (Rules Reference VI.C.2.i). This rule does not literally say that you skip steps of combat if a minion is no longer ready. For instance, I would not interpret that rule to mean that if a vampire who played superior Drawing out the Beast was no longer ready after the Strikes step, that the other vampire could avoid the damage from DotB during the Press step. I guess it depends on what you think the word "participate" means.

[LSJ 20021107] : "No press step for not ready vampires"
Complete Rules Reference "NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3]"

There is no press step if one of the combattants is not ready. There is no DotB damage if one of the combattants isn't ready.
[EDIT: Of course, any unhandled damage remaining to be handled must be handled. Stealing 2 life at close range from a Shambling Hordes with 2 life will still result in the vampire having to deal with 2 damage]

The reason you can order Taste of Vitae and Amaranth in the same window is because ToV is played during Step E/Round ends and Amaranth can played any time in combat a vampire is going to torpor.

Step E. Round Ends
1. Taste of Vitae (played at the end of the round)
2. Disarm (played at the end of the round)
3. Amaranth (played whenever a vampire would go to torpor)

This doesn't imply a "lingering going to torpor" effect at all. It is played this way because of the timing framework provided by the Complete Rules Reference and the text of the cards in question. The ruling you reference is simply reiterating what is already in the rules.


I fully agree with this, but it's not what I meant / said.
What I meant / said was this:
1 - Disarm (or agg, or entombment, ..)
2 - Taste of Vitae
3 - Amaranth.

In this sequence, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor" as ToV is played. In the linked ruling, this sequence is allowed. What I'm saying is that, once Disarm is played, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor". It should enter torpor, unless something is played (Amaranth, Undead Persistence, ..) But, in this very sequence, Taste of Vitae was squeezed in, making the "going to torpor" effect last, rather than have it applied immediately.
Last edit: 11 Aug 2011 19:17 by Pascal Bertrand.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Aug 2011 14:05 - 12 Aug 2011 14:07 #7993 by AaronC

"NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3]"


Thank you for this reference! I couldn't find this rascal. I was afraid this important rule had gone unwritten.

Again, this reference seems to invalidate the 2000 ruling, since here it says "is burned", and that ruling said "is being burned". Vampires can play cards while they are "being burned", such as Reform Body, thus participating in combat, thus indicating combat has not ended. (Yes, I prefer my dead horse well-beaten :unsure:)

I do understand there's no press step once a minion is no longer ready, but I was saying that the line from the rulebook 6.4 you had referenced doesn't disallow the press step per se. A ruling was required, which you cited.

I fully agree with this, but it's not what I meant / said.
What I meant / said was this:
1 - Disarm (or agg, or entombment, ..)
2 - Taste of Vitae
3 - Amaranth.

In this sequence, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor" as ToV is played. In the linked ruling, this sequence is allowed. What I'm saying is that, once Disarm is played, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor". It should enter torpor, unless something is played (Amaranth, Undead Persistence, ..) But, in this very sequence, Taste of Vitae was squeezed in, making the "going to torpor" effect last, rather than have it applied immediately.


Okay, I see what you meant. My issue was with "being burned" lasting across steps of combat, particualarly, a vampire burned during the strike step not going to the ash heap until the combat ends step. The sequence you're talking about seems completely correct, although I can see why a ruling was important for clarification. (However Entombment would not fit in this example since it can't be played during 'round ends'.)
Last edit: 12 Aug 2011 14:07 by AaronC. Reason: to correct my colloquial expression

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.089 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum