Tangle Atropos' Hand vs. failed block attempts (an impulse and timing question)

Hakuron wrote:

I am quite sure, that for a "block attempt" you only have to be ready, untapped (or tapped and "awaken") and "willing to do so", but you do not have to have any points of intercept.

I have not found a specific ruling by now, but only "hints":
vtesone.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/coping-with-bleed-bounce/
www.jyhad.pw/2006/Mar/07/51957.html

There's no ruling because it's in the Detailed Play Summary. A block attempt happens before stealth and intercept are compared.


An attempt to block is resolved as follows:
Choose a ready, untapped minion you control to attempt to block. [6.2.2.1]
Stealth and intercept. [6.2.2.2]
Blocking minion can play a reaction card to increase intercept only if the acting minion has stealth greater than the blocking minion's intercept.
Acting minion can play an action modifier card to increase stealth only if the blocking minion has at least as much intercept as the acting minion's stealth.
Repeat a,b above until neither minion wishes to play a card.
Modifications to stealth and intercept (and other modifiers) last for the whole action.
If the intercept of the blocker is at least as much as the stealth of the acting minion, then the action is blocked. [6.2.2.2] Complete the action (step D.)
If unblocked (i.e., the stealth of the acting minion is greater than the Intercept of the blocking minion), then move on to the next block attempt (continue step B.) [6.2.2.1]
If there are no more block attempts, the action succeeds. Complete the action. (step D.)

Lead wrote:

One much simpler way to say this (perhaps too simple):

Timing of Tangle Atropos' Hand -- you can play it when you would or could play stealth, but instead of playing stealth you play Tangle to cancel the action and untap.

This is correct from the timing point of view (i.e.: stealth and Tangle play in the same window.) However, stealth has the extra requirement that blocker must have enough intercept, and tangle does not have anything similar written on the card. So you can't add more stealth if you already have enough, but you can still play Tangle.

Lead wrote:

If a block fails (the acting minion's stealth exceeds the blocker's intercept and the blocker's Methuselah cannot add or does not wish to add more intercept), either another attempt is made (with the same or a different minion) or the defending Methuselah declares that she will not make any further attempts to block the action. Note that this declaration is an effect and so allows the acting Methuselah (and others) to play more cards and effects.

[Commentary/Interpretation: Impulse stays with blocker until an actual block attempt is made with proper intercept -- although Impulse also moves in response to any card or effect being played, until a block attempt is made it stays with the defending Methusaleh -- once that is done a block attempt or failing to block is a result returned to the acting Methuselah who may then respond e.g. by playing Tangle (or stealth or another effect) in response to the block attempt or by resolving the action in the case of No Block Attempt]


and Lead said:

Relevantly though, my understanding is that impulse returns to the acting minion in the same way -- the defending methuselah either has made a block attempt (with the minimum required intercept) or has attempted and failed to block -- for both results Blessing of Chaos and Valerius' special are triggered, but only in the active block attempt case would Tangle be playable.

I brought this up in our playgroup on Wednesday with Lead (which has changed his tune on this, looking at it in terms of "impulse":

Lead was thinking that if the blocking minion doesn't play cards and doesn't have enough intercept, he "fails to block" before impulse goes back to the acting methusaleh. He then was arguing that the blocking minion is no longer "attempting" to block, he attempted to block, and so can't play Tangle. However, impulse must pass when the blocking minion's controller just says "attempt to block", even if you don't play any cards. That is why when you say, "attempt to block", your cross table ally can tap KRCG or play Babble to give you intercept, or decide not to. If impulse didn't pass in that instance, nobody could ever use KRCG or Babble to give another Methusaleh intercept. That is why you can definitely play Tangle in this instance as long as your grand prey has an untapped guy or wakes and says "attempt to block". Also, you clearly can "attempt to block" even if you don't have enough intercept, like with Sense the Savage Way, Black Sunrise, etc., just to get the untap.

And this is a great example of why it might be a good idea to provide a clear explanation of sequencing and impulse in the rulebook/detailed play summary.

Surely in this case the acting playing has impulse to play Tangle.

Player B attempts to block with a minion, may play zero or more cards — player A has impulse to play Tangle after each card is played if any (as does the rest of the table) or can wait until no more cards are played. Either way they will receive the impulse again and a chance to play Tangle during the block attempt.

It's covered fairly well in the detailed summary under: II PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]

Ke. wrote:

Surely in this case the acting playing has impulse to play Tangle.

Player B attempts to block with a minion, may play zero or more cards — player A has impulse to play Tangle after each card is played if any (as does the rest of the table) or can wait until no more cards are played. Either way they will receive the impulse again and a chance to play Tangle during the block attempt.

It's covered fairly well in the detailed summary under: II PLAYING CARDS AND OTHER EFFECTS [1.6]

It's not detailed enough. I was thinking more along the lines of the outline of sequencing here , which is much more detailed.

In addition, it's just not clear that attempting/declining/failing to block is an effect the player uses to pass the impulse. The rulebook tries to explain this in the relevant places as an aside. Still, it might be a good idea to give blocking a formal definition in the rulebook, describing clearly that declining/attempting/failing to block is an effect the player uses to pass the impulse.