Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
01 Mar 2017 23:21 #80943
by TwoRazorReign
Thanks for the clarification. My point is that this important piece of information is missing from the rulebook. A player who has not learned this will almost certainly assume that a tapped minion cannot be tapped. VTES includes a lot of non-intuitive logic, and the rulebook does a bad job codifying this logic.
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
Tapping a minion is an effect that simply requires a minion. An already tapped minion satisfies this requirement and the effect is redundant, which doesnt prevent the card from being played.
Thanks for the clarification. My point is that this important piece of information is missing from the rulebook. A player who has not learned this will almost certainly assume that a tapped minion cannot be tapped. VTES includes a lot of non-intuitive logic, and the rulebook does a bad job codifying this logic.
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02 Mar 2017 10:48 #80949
by thelonius reloaded
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
Replied by thelonius reloaded on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
The main difference between cost and effect is the wording:
Do x to do y = cost
Do x and then do y = effect
Of course, tapping a tapped minion does not satisfy a cost, but may be part of an effect.
In this case, wording is "tap a minion and add a corruption counter"
Do x to do y = cost
Do x and then do y = effect
Of course, tapping a tapped minion does not satisfy a cost, but may be part of an effect.
In this case, wording is "tap a minion and add a corruption counter"
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
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02 Mar 2017 13:40 - 02 Mar 2017 13:43 #80951
by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
Yes. And the player who has not learned the steps in logic and wording templates you just laid out (those are not quite the wording templates used in the rulebook) will immediately think, "I can't use this, the minion is already tapped."
Last edit: 02 Mar 2017 13:43 by TwoRazorReign.
The following user(s) said Thank You: 2wayspeaker
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02 Mar 2017 15:11 #80954
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
Does this mean that the same player will think "I can't play a Theft of Vitae against a vampire with no blood"?Yes. And the player who has not learned the steps in logic and wording templates you just laid out (those are not quite the wording templates used in the rulebook) will immediately think, "I can't use this, the minion is already tapped."
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02 Mar 2017 22:48 - 02 Mar 2017 22:51 #80967
by TwoRazorReign
No. How many times have you seen a new player try to send an opposing vampire to torpor using Theft of Vitae? I've seen it many times.
Doing something to a minion with zero blood in combat is not restricted by the rules. Theft of Vitae is likely regarded as no different than playing Lucky Blow in this situation because there are no stop signs when an opposing minion has no blood in combat. Now, a minion being tapped generally restricts that minion from doing anything (tapped minions can't act, can't block, can't react...). I mean, there are stop signs left and right when a minion is tapped. Thus why this player would think tapping a tapped minion is restricted.
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
Does this mean that the same player will think "I can't play a Theft of Vitae against a vampire with no blood"?Yes. And the player who has not learned the steps in logic and wording templates you just laid out (those are not quite the wording templates used in the rulebook) will immediately think, "I can't use this, the minion is already tapped."
No. How many times have you seen a new player try to send an opposing vampire to torpor using Theft of Vitae? I've seen it many times.
Doing something to a minion with zero blood in combat is not restricted by the rules. Theft of Vitae is likely regarded as no different than playing Lucky Blow in this situation because there are no stop signs when an opposing minion has no blood in combat. Now, a minion being tapped generally restricts that minion from doing anything (tapped minions can't act, can't block, can't react...). I mean, there are stop signs left and right when a minion is tapped. Thus why this player would think tapping a tapped minion is restricted.
Last edit: 02 Mar 2017 22:51 by TwoRazorReign.
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03 Mar 2017 09:00 #80974
by Ankha
I'll put it in the same category of mistakes. New players will do mistakes, however clear the rules and the cardtexts are. At some point, the players must learn logical rules that make the game work. I put an emphasis on "learn" because logical rules are not necessarily intuitive (and what's called "intuitive" also varies along with the players)
Replied by Ankha on topic Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?
Does this mean that the same player will think "I can't play a Theft of Vitae against a vampire with no blood"?Yes. And the player who has not learned the steps in logic and wording templates you just laid out (those are not quite the wording templates used in the rulebook) will immediately think, "I can't use this, the minion is already tapped."
No. How many times have you seen a new player try to send an opposing vampire to torpor using Theft of Vitae? I've seen it many times.
I'll put it in the same category of mistakes. New players will do mistakes, however clear the rules and the cardtexts are. At some point, the players must learn logical rules that make the game work. I put an emphasis on "learn" because logical rules are not necessarily intuitive (and what's called "intuitive" also varies along with the players)
Tapping a tapped card is not restricted by the rules neither.Doing something to a minion with zero blood in combat is not restricted by the rules.
Stealing something from someone who has nothing is not intuitive.Theft of Vitae is likely regarded as no different than playing Lucky Blow in this situation because there are no stop signs when an opposing minion has no blood in combat.
Tapping a tapped card is not intuitive neither. I understand you find it less intuitive than stealing things from someone who has nothing. But it's nonetheless logical, and for some players, a thing they must learn.Now, a minion being tapped generally restricts that minion from doing anything (tapped minions can't act, can't block, can't react...). I mean, there are stop signs left and right when a minion is tapped. Thus why this player would think tapping a tapped minion is restricted.
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