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file Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

25 Sep 2018 08:36 - 25 Sep 2018 08:48 #90750 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?

Nicomedes
[aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
Harbinger of Skulls
Capacity: 5
Group: 4
Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).

(edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")

Yes.

And before you ask: you replace card by card, discarding each time X cards (where X is the number of extra cards you drew).

groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Infernal$20pursuit$20weakens/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/H6Jm74N0v7k
Prince of Paris, France
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Last edit: 25 Sep 2018 08:48 by Ankha.

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25 Sep 2018 09:29 #90751 by skimflux
Replied by skimflux on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

Does drawing back up to your hand size after using Nicomedes' ability count as replacing cards for the purposes of Infernal Pursuit?

Nicomedes
[aus] [for] [nec] [vic]
Harbinger of Skulls
Capacity: 5
Group: 4
Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward).

(edit: had somehow omitted the word "ability")

Yes.

And before you ask: you replace card by card, discarding each time X cards (where X is the number of extra cards you drew).

groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Infernal$20pursuit$20weakens/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/H6Jm74N0v7k


That ruling seems to have been made with the original card text in mind, but it makes no sense with current card text. The hand size is still 7 (or whatever) while replacing cards, and Infernal Pusuit only requires to discard down to hand size. So you should not have to discard any cards until you have more than [hand size] cards in hand.
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25 Sep 2018 09:52 - 25 Sep 2018 09:59 #90753 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

You must have the weapon in your hand to play the Concealed Weapon, but each card is played separately. You may ask a judge to confirm that a legal play is happening (that they have a card in hand before replacement), but technically the player cannot show you this card until they have replaced the Concealed Weapon.


At 1.6.1. of general rules is this tidbit:

The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

I would interpret this to mean announcing what you are equipping with concealed weapon as you play it.
Which means you would reveal the 44 magnum from your hand and say you are concealing it, even if these cards would not be replaced yet.

ps. Has it ever occurred to the rules team to change the rules and/or card texts to make common situations less obtrusive? Reading the words "You can ask a judge to confirm legal play" made me facepalm so hard I hurt myself. Asking a judge to make sure that a play is legal is just about as obtrusive as it gets, especially in tournaments where a judge tends to be also a player. You pause TWO games just to ensure that playing a card in normal way is legal.

Changing concealed/disguised weapons into such that the weapon is played at the same time, and thus both cards would be lost if CW is canceled springs to mind. It would feel bad to lose both cards to 1 card, but it would cut the amount of fuss involving backtracking extra card draws to zero.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 25 Sep 2018 09:59 by Bloodartist.

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25 Sep 2018 09:58 - 25 Sep 2018 10:00 #90754 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit
The quoted car text by fzD is the last one so except if Anha do a rule back this ruling still apply

i guess it means that your hand size becomes 1 then 2 etc until you have your "normal" hand size
Last edit: 25 Sep 2018 10:00 by Timo.

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25 Sep 2018 15:21 - 25 Sep 2018 15:26 #90757 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

At 1.6.1. of general rules is this tidbit:

The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

I would interpret this to mean announcing what you are equipping with concealed weapon as you play it.
Which means you would reveal the 44 magnum from your hand and say you are concealing it, even if these cards would not be replaced yet.

No, you don't have to reveal the card. You just have to say: "I play Concealed Weapon on a .44 Magnum".

ps. Has it ever occurred to the rules team to change the rules and/or card texts to make common situations less obtrusive? Reading the words "You can ask a judge to confirm legal play" made me facepalm so hard I hurt myself.

You don't need to do that. You can set aside the weapon, face down, when you play the Concealed Weapon. Then, when the effect resolves, you just flip the weapon face up.

For some other effects, we have made some changes on a card per card basis such as most cards searched in the library or crypt are now revealed (this is not a general ruling)
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Last edit: 25 Sep 2018 15:26 by Ankha.
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25 Sep 2018 15:23 - 25 Sep 2018 15:24 #90758 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Order of draw and replace for Concealed Weapon under Infernal Pursuit

The quoted car text by fzD is the last one so except if Anha do a rule back this ruling still apply

The ruling stands.

i guess it means that your hand size becomes 1 then 2 etc until you have your "normal" hand size

No: cards being replaced in a batch all count against the hand size.
So you replace the first card (with 6 other cards waiting to be replaced and counting against your hand size), you draw an extra one with Infernal Pursuit, discard a card, then replace the second card (with 5 other cards waiting to be replaced and counting against your hand size) etc.

You may end up with fewer cards than your hand size if you deplete your library in the meantime.
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Last edit: 25 Sep 2018 15:24 by Ankha.
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