First Tradition and Unlock Phase
24 Jul 2019 17:57 #95959
by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
Good catch lol. The reason that it needs specified is so that we stop hand waving the mechanics of vtes and have things rigorously functional. Vtes is a game without rules and shit tons of rulings. That isn't at all good.
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24 Jul 2019 21:40 #95961
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
yes but the question is still when am I choosing? before your turn is like not a phase or anything.
What hasn't changed is that you must make the choice when you would take your turn, and that if you skip your turn, you skip it entirely (you don't unlock your cards for instance).
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24 Jul 2019 21:51 - 24 Jul 2019 21:53 #95963
by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
I'm not in the mood for equine abuse but...
My turn begins with untap. There is no when I would take my turn phase.
Be best to say in untap phase, before untapping or any other effects maybe
My turn begins with untap. There is no when I would take my turn phase.
Be best to say in untap phase, before untapping or any other effects maybe
Last edit: 24 Jul 2019 21:53 by Mewcat.
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25 Jul 2019 06:06 - 25 Jul 2019 06:10 #95966
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
So you have taken your turn.I'm not in the mood for equine abuse but...
My turn begins with untap.
Yes there is. When the previous turn ends ("is it my turn?" or "It's your turn" depending on who's speaking), it is your turn, or at least it would be your turn if you had chosen not to skip it.There is no when I would take my turn phase.
Last edit: 25 Jul 2019 06:10 by Ankha.
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25 Jul 2019 09:56 - 25 Jul 2019 09:57 #95971
by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
Here's how I interpret "when you would take your turn":
(1) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play between the end of one turn and the start of the next turn (before initiating the next turn's unlock phase).
(2) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play during their turn's unlock phase (before doing anything that normally happens in the unlock phase).
Note that (2) is technically not skipping the player's entire turn, but now we are getting into semantics. As far as I can tell, no illegal effect can happen by following (2). So any distinction between 1 and 2 is irrelevant. If this is wrong, "when you would take your turn" needs to be further clarified.
(1) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play between the end of one turn and the start of the next turn (before initiating the next turn's unlock phase).
(2) There exists an opportunity for a player to choose to take their turn when First Tradition is in play during their turn's unlock phase (before doing anything that normally happens in the unlock phase).
Note that (2) is technically not skipping the player's entire turn, but now we are getting into semantics. As far as I can tell, no illegal effect can happen by following (2). So any distinction between 1 and 2 is irrelevant. If this is wrong, "when you would take your turn" needs to be further clarified.
Last edit: 25 Jul 2019 09:57 by TwoRazorReign.
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25 Jul 2019 10:29 - 25 Jul 2019 20:41 #95972
by Bloodartist
There is a major difference. The old wording (pay 2 pool or skip your turn) would mean that first traditions stack when there are multiples in play. You would have to make the choice for each first tradition separately.
Whereas the up-to-date wording presented by Ankha (You may choose to skip your turn. Burn 2 pool during your unlock phase) means that if you skip your turn, none of the first traditions do anything since there is no unlock phase to burn pool in. This is the most likely cause of confusion with the card.
I much more like the current up-to-date wording. This problem of multiple first traditions has come up in our local games but we figured it out using the up-to-date wording.
ps. The perennial VTES issue of cards creating timing steps that don't exist is unfortunate, but I don't think this card can be made to work in any other way.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic First Tradition and Unlock Phase
2) If your answer is, "They decide before their turn starts," that's a de-errata, re-introducing the apparently contentious issue of making decisions during a phase that doesn't exist. (I'm not actually sure why the text was ever changed from "While in play, each Methulselah must skip his or her turn or burn two pool," which is much clearer to me.)
There is a major difference. The old wording (pay 2 pool or skip your turn) would mean that first traditions stack when there are multiples in play. You would have to make the choice for each first tradition separately.
Whereas the up-to-date wording presented by Ankha (You may choose to skip your turn. Burn 2 pool during your unlock phase) means that if you skip your turn, none of the first traditions do anything since there is no unlock phase to burn pool in. This is the most likely cause of confusion with the card.
I much more like the current up-to-date wording. This problem of multiple first traditions has come up in our local games but we figured it out using the up-to-date wording.
ps. The perennial VTES issue of cards creating timing steps that don't exist is unfortunate, but I don't think this card can be made to work in any other way.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 25 Jul 2019 20:41 by Bloodartist.
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