file Suspension of Disbelief, Red Herring, Bleed?

03 Oct 2019 12:27 #97225 by Ankha
It will be clarified on reprint:


Red Herring : The action now ends unsuccessfully.

Only usable if this vampire is blocked, before block resolution.
[chi] Unlock this vampire, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). If an action card was used to perform the action, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward). Your vampires cannot take the same action again this turn.
[CHI] As above, but lock the blocking minion.


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03 Oct 2019 18:22 #97228 by Kushiel

With that errata they could probably take out the "Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn." wording as well since it would be clearer that NRA applies.

Removing that text would dramatically change how the card works. As it currently stands (and will continue to, once the new text that Ankha posted takes effect), that text prevents all your vampires from attempting that action again this turn, not just the vampire who played RH.
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06 Oct 2019 16:17 - 06 Oct 2019 16:17 #97266 by jamesatzephyr

Looks like Red Herring needs an errata then. Cancelling an action has a very specific meaning, precisely because it impacts the NRA.

While clarification is sensible, cancelling doesn't work the way you think it does. The "no repeat" taint takes effect when the action reaches resolution. The reason that various things that "cancel" an action mean that the "no repeat" taint isn't affected is because the action was terminated before the taint was applied.

The one that springs to mind - where the action card isn't cancelled outright - is Tangle Atropos' Hand.
Only usable if a minion attempts to block.
[pot] Cancel the action and unlock this vampire. (The action is not blocked. Do not lock the blocking minion.)

The reason that the no repeat taint isn't applied here is that when the action is cancelled, you're still in block attempts. The action hasn't been declared successful (unblocked) or blocked, so the no repeat taint hasn't been applied. Then the action is cancelled.

Other cards that cancel an action have always been able to leave the no repeat taint in place, if the taint has already been applied. LSJ likened "canceling" in this sort of situation to "canceling a check", not "completely undoing it".

[LSJ 20070709]

>> 1). I was thinking that canceling an action means that the action was
>> "never performed",

No. It means something more like canceling a check -- the check was still
written. Canceling an action menas the action is prematurely terminated.

>> so the acting minion can play another action of the
>> same type (bleed or political action) regardless of NRA.

Only if the action that was canceled hadn't reached resolution.


> Psychomachia "cancels" the action, so it can be taken again.

No. The action reached resolution in order for Psychomachia to be played.
Therefore the minion cannot repeat the action.

> Same like Tangle Atropos' Hand.

Tangle is played before resolution and cancels the action, so resolution is
never reached. That's why the minion can repeat the action.

Last edit: 06 Oct 2019 16:17 by jamesatzephyr.

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