Action fails vs. action ends
11 Apr 2020 14:31 #99557
by lip
Action fails vs. action ends was created by lip
Some card make an action fail, others make an action end.
I found many rulings about "action end" cards, clearly once played, no other modifier or reaction can be played. I found no such ruling about "action fails" card, only [LSJ 20070217] that seems to indicate that, however failed, the actions still has resolution and after resolution steps, at least for combat.
So, is it possible to play modifiers, reactions or effects usable "after an unsuccessful action" like Zephyr, (or Hay Ride or Neighborhood Watch Commander) after combat when a card made an action fail like Champion (or Ensconced), or even if there is no combat like with Faerie Wards (or Hide the Heart, Hide, Malkavian Derangement: Alternate Personality or Final Loosening) ?
From what I collected, the answer could be "yes, there is an "as the action would resolved unsuccessfully step" as well as "no, action has ended, but any lingering effect (damage to apply, combat to undertake) still take place."
Zephyr
Only usable after resolution of an unsuccessful action.
Unlock this vampire at the end of the turn.
Unlock this vampire.
Hay Ride
[2 Blood]
Only usable after action resolution (successful or not).
Choose a Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother. As your next action, the chosen Blood Brother can play the action card used for this action from your ash heap as if from your hand.
As above, but this card costs 1 fewer blood.
Neighborhood Watch Commander
[2 Blood]
Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed.
Lock after resolution of an unsuccessful action to inflict 1 damage on the acting vampire. Only one Neighborhood Watch Commander can lock to inflict damage each action.
Champion
Only usable when a monster controlled by another Methuselah is taking a Ⓓ action against you or against an imbued controlled by any player. The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead.
Ensconced
+1 stealth action. Put this card on a location and unlock this vampire. While this vampire is ready, their controller can burn this card during a Ⓓ action against the attached location to have the action fail, and the acting minion and this vampire enter combat.
Only usable during a Ⓓ action against any location. This vampire unlocks, the action fails, and the acting minion and this vampire enter combat.
Faerie Wards
[2 Blood]
Only usable if an ally or younger vampire is taking a Ⓓ action against you (or a card you control).
+2 intercept.
The action fails. Lock this reacting vampire.
As
above, and the acting minion does not unlock as normal during their next unlock phase.
Hide the Heart
Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
The action fails, unless the acting minion burns 1 blood. Only one Hide the Heart can be played at
each action.
Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or lock to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2.
Hide
Not usable by an imbued with Illuminate.
1
Only usable as the action is announced. Monsters get -1 intercept against this action.
1
Only usable during a monster's Ⓓ action targeting this imbued. The action fails.
Malkavian Derangement: Alternate Personality
[2 Pool]
Master.
Choose a ready Malkavian. Put this card on the vampire. Each time the Malkavian takes an action, his or her controller flips a coin. If the result is heads, continue with the action. If the result is tails, the action fails: his or her controller burns 1 pool and locks the Malkavian.
Final Loosening
Requires an anarch.
Play when the acting vampire would gain 1 or more blood. The acting vampire and this reacting anarch each gain 1 blood instead.
Gain 4 votes.
Only usable when an ally is acting. The action fails and the ally takes 1 damage. Lock this reacting anarch.
I found many rulings about "action end" cards, clearly once played, no other modifier or reaction can be played. I found no such ruling about "action fails" card, only [LSJ 20070217] that seems to indicate that, however failed, the actions still has resolution and after resolution steps, at least for combat.
So, is it possible to play modifiers, reactions or effects usable "after an unsuccessful action" like Zephyr, (or Hay Ride or Neighborhood Watch Commander) after combat when a card made an action fail like Champion (or Ensconced), or even if there is no combat like with Faerie Wards (or Hide the Heart, Hide, Malkavian Derangement: Alternate Personality or Final Loosening) ?
From what I collected, the answer could be "yes, there is an "as the action would resolved unsuccessfully step" as well as "no, action has ended, but any lingering effect (damage to apply, combat to undertake) still take place."

Only usable after resolution of an unsuccessful action.



[2 Blood]
Only usable after action resolution (successful or not).



[2 Blood]
Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed.
Lock after resolution of an unsuccessful action to inflict 1 damage on the acting vampire. Only one Neighborhood Watch Commander can lock to inflict damage each action.




Ensconced





[2 Blood]
Only usable if an ally or younger vampire is taking a Ⓓ action against you (or a card you control).










Not usable by an imbued with Illuminate.




Malkavian Derangement: Alternate Personality
[2 Pool]
Master.
Choose a ready Malkavian. Put this card on the vampire. Each time the Malkavian takes an action, his or her controller flips a coin. If the result is heads, continue with the action. If the result is tails, the action fails: his or her controller burns 1 pool and locks the Malkavian.

Requires an anarch.



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11 Apr 2020 14:48 #99558
by jamesatzephyr
An action that fails hasn't ended (yet), so there is still time to play various cards and effects during the failed resolution, yes.
[LSJ 20041022]
Yes.
Though note that Freak Drive, for example, triggers off an action being successful (inferior) or blocked (superior), not just unsuccessful.
Yes, there not being combat isn't an issue.
You can have an action that is unsuccessful and has no combat with no cards played at all - block a cardless "leave torpor" action. The acting vampire could play various cards like Zephyr etc. if they wanted to (assuming they hadn't been eaten, of course).
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Action fails vs. action ends
Some card make an action fail, others make an action end.
I found many rulings about "action end" cards, clearly once played, no other modifier or reaction can be played. I found no such ruling about "action fails" card, only [LSJ 20070217] that seems to indicate that, however failed, the actions still has resolution and after resolution steps, at least for combat.
An action that fails hasn't ended (yet), so there is still time to play various cards and effects during the failed resolution, yes.
[LSJ 20041022]
> If an effect causes an action to "fail", does the action end immediately
> as part of the resolution of the effect (similar to an effect that causes
> the action to "end"), or is there an opportunity to play "end of action"
> effects?
The latter.
So, is it possible to play modifiers, reactions or effects usable "after an unsuccessful action" like Zephyr, (or Hay Ride or Neighborhood Watch Commander) after combat when a card made an action fail like Champion (or Ensconced),
Yes.
Though note that Freak Drive, for example, triggers off an action being successful (inferior) or blocked (superior), not just unsuccessful.
or even if there is no combat like with Faerie Wards (or Hide the Heart, Hide, Malkavian Derangement: Alternate Personality or Final Loosening) ?
Yes, there not being combat isn't an issue.
You can have an action that is unsuccessful and has no combat with no cards played at all - block a cardless "leave torpor" action. The acting vampire could play various cards like Zephyr etc. if they wanted to (assuming they hadn't been eaten, of course).
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13 Apr 2020 10:56 #99572
by lip
Replied by lip on topic Action fails vs. action ends
Thanks a lot for the quick response and, moreover, for the ruling link !
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