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Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
30 Apr 2020 16:35 #99722
by cauecoraini
Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase. was created by cauecoraini
Hello gents.
I have a question about the timing of cost paying for actions. Is the event "pay the cost of the action" part of the "action resolution", or does it occurs before the "action resolution" phase?
What is the correct flux of events:
A) successful unblocked action -> Begin "action resolution" -> pay costs -> resolve the effects -> end "action resolution"
Or
B) successful unblocked action -> pay costs -> only then Begin "action resolution" -> resolve the effects -> end "action resolution"?
I have a question about the timing of cost paying for actions. Is the event "pay the cost of the action" part of the "action resolution", or does it occurs before the "action resolution" phase?
What is the correct flux of events:
A) successful unblocked action -> Begin "action resolution" -> pay costs -> resolve the effects -> end "action resolution"
Or
B) successful unblocked action -> pay costs -> only then Begin "action resolution" -> resolve the effects -> end "action resolution"?
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30 Apr 2020 19:46 #99724
by thelonius reloaded
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
Replied by thelonius reloaded on topic Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
As per Detailed play summary (you can find it in the rules section on the left sidebar)
Complete action.
If the action is one that cannot be repeated (bleed, political action, action card, or card in play), the acting minion now becomes unable to perform this action again this turn. [6.1.1][6.1.6][6.1.7]
If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
Pay cost of the action.
Resolve action.
Complete action.
If the action is one that cannot be repeated (bleed, political action, action card, or card in play), the acting minion now becomes unable to perform this action again this turn. [6.1.1][6.1.6][6.1.7]
If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
Pay cost of the action.
Resolve action.
Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy
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01 May 2020 14:57 #99726
by Sambomb
So i can play Mask of a Thousand Faces after pay the cost and before resolution?
Example: Nergal use basic Legal Manipulations and reduce the cost to 0.
After the cost is paid, a Horde use Mask of Thousand Faces to make the bleed.
Same example as above, but without Nergal use his card text to avoid any "other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire"
The time frame to play cards between successful action and card cost exist in Forger's Hammer, but I didnt know about anything between pay cost and resolve the action.
Name: Mask of a Thousand Faces
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, KMW:PB2, LotN:PA, KoT:U, HttB:PSam2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] Only usable by a ready, unlocked vampire other than the acting minion who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire. Unlock the acting minion and lock this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire as the acting minion.
[OBF] As above, with +1 stealth.
Artist: Jeff Menges; Leif Jones
Name: Nergal
[Promo-20051001, Promo-20190804]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Baali
Group: 5
Capacity: 10
Discipline: AUS DAI FOR OBF PRE THA
Independent: Once each turn, Nergal can reduce the cost of a card he plays by 1 blood. Infernal. +2 bleed.
Artist: Mark Poole
Name: Legal Manipulations
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PB2, CE:C/PB, BH:PTo2, KMW:PB5, LoB:PI3, FB:PTo2]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
Name: Forger's Hammer
[Third:U, LotN:PG]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Potence
Only usable when an action to equip a non-unique melee weapon from your hand is successful.
[pot] Put this card on the weapon. This weapon inflicts +1 damage each strike.
[POT] As above, and the cost of this weapon is reduced by 1 blood or 1 pool.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Replied by Sambomb on topic Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
As per Detailed play summary (you can find it in the rules section on the left sidebar)
Complete action.
If the action is one that cannot be repeated (bleed, political action, action card, or card in play), the acting minion now becomes unable to perform this action again this turn. [6.1.1][6.1.6][6.1.7]
If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
Pay cost of the action.
Resolve action.
So i can play Mask of a Thousand Faces after pay the cost and before resolution?
Example: Nergal use basic Legal Manipulations and reduce the cost to 0.
After the cost is paid, a Horde use Mask of Thousand Faces to make the bleed.
Same example as above, but without Nergal use his card text to avoid any "other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire"
The time frame to play cards between successful action and card cost exist in Forger's Hammer, but I didnt know about anything between pay cost and resolve the action.
Mask of a Thousand Faces
Name: Mask of a Thousand Faces
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, KMW:PB2, LotN:PA, KoT:U, HttB:PSam2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] Only usable by a ready, unlocked vampire other than the acting minion who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire. Unlock the acting minion and lock this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire as the acting minion.
[OBF] As above, with +1 stealth.
Artist: Jeff Menges; Leif Jones
Nergal
Name: Nergal
[Promo-20051001, Promo-20190804]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Baali
Group: 5
Capacity: 10
Discipline: AUS DAI FOR OBF PRE THA
Independent: Once each turn, Nergal can reduce the cost of a card he plays by 1 blood. Infernal. +2 bleed.
Artist: Mark Poole
Legal Manipulations
Name: Legal Manipulations
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PB2, CE:C/PB, BH:PTo2, KMW:PB5, LoB:PI3, FB:PTo2]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
Bleed with +2 bleed.
As above, and gain 1 pool if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more).
Artist: Stuart Beel
Forger's Hammer
Name: Forger's Hammer
[Third:U, LotN:PG]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Potence
Only usable when an action to equip a non-unique melee weapon from your hand is successful.
[pot] Put this card on the weapon. This weapon inflicts +1 damage each strike.
[POT] As above, and the cost of this weapon is reduced by 1 blood or 1 pool.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc
Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
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02 May 2020 08:45 #99732
by Ankha
It's part of the action resolution.
Rulebook:
6.2.3. Resolve the Action
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place.
Replied by Ankha on topic Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
I have a question about the timing of cost paying for actions. Is the event "pay the cost of the action" part of the "action resolution", or does it occurs before the "action resolution" phase?
It's part of the action resolution.
Rulebook:
6.2.3. Resolve the Action
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place.
No. You either play action modifiers before the action resolution, or after if the card allows it (eg. Freak Drive can be played after resolution).So i can play Mask of a Thousand Faces after pay the cost and before resolution?
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02 May 2020 12:02 #99736
by jamesatzephyr
LSJ expressly ruled that it's not.
[LSJ 20090312]
i.e. the cost is paid when the action is successful, but before resolution (application of the effects).
This is also shown in the Summary of the Course of an Action:
i.e. its timing is linked to success, not the ensuing resolution.
The fact that the cost is mentioned in "Resolve the action" appears mostly just to be a weird artefact of the way the rulebook tries to group things into several broad categories, but then explains things that come before and after them. e.g. "before range is determined" is before Determine Range, but is explained in Determine Range anyway.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
It's part of the action resolution.
LSJ expressly ruled that it's not.
[LSJ 20090312]
Action cards' costs are paid when the action succeeds (reaches resolution
unblocked) but before resolution (you have to pay the cost in order to resolve
the action's effect).
Rulebook:
6.2.3. Resolve the Action
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place.
i.e. the cost is paid when the action is successful, but before resolution (application of the effects).
This is also shown in the Summary of the Course of an Action:
If no more attempts are made, then the action is successful, and the cost of the action is paid. If a block attempt is successful, then the blocking minion locks and enters combat with the acting minion.
i.e. its timing is linked to success, not the ensuing resolution.
The fact that the cost is mentioned in "Resolve the action" appears mostly just to be a weird artefact of the way the rulebook tries to group things into several broad categories, but then explains things that come before and after them. e.g. "before range is determined" is before Determine Range, but is explained in Determine Range anyway.
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02 May 2020 15:12 #99737
by Ankha
Indeed, sorry for the mistake.
The answer to the second question stands however.
Replied by Ankha on topic Timing of cost paying for actions and the scope of the "action resolving" phase.
It's part of the action resolution.
LSJ expressly ruled that it's not.
[LSJ 20090312]
Indeed, sorry for the mistake.
The answer to the second question stands however.
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