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file Paths and burn blood requrement

19 Feb 2021 13:23 #101667 by beslin igor
Replied by beslin igor on topic Paths and burn blood requrement

So cost = "burn blood" => Paths works?


No,on "burn blood" efect Paths doesnt work,but you must have 2 blood to play Army of Apparitions superior.
Path work only on pay card,if card cost. Army of Apparitions superior is not cost,is just burn blod to card take efect
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19 Feb 2021 15:04 #101668 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Paths and burn blood requrement

I think it is a cost. But it’s not the cost of the card, it’s the cost of an effect so is not reduced by paths. See maybe this ruling:

>Is the 2 blood the cost for playing superior Shadow Step? If so, can
>it be reduced by the Citadel or ignored by Dragos? If not, can a vampire
>with 0 blood use the effect (ignoring burn blood effects past his current
>blood supply?)

No. It is the cost for setting the range. Shadow Step (superior) merely
grants the vampire the (mandatory) ability to use that effect. The cost
cannot be reduced by the Citadel nor ignored by Dragos, since it is not
the cost of playing a card. A vampire with zero blood cannot pay the cost,
so cannot set the range.


[LSJ 19970224](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/80KRDjVFkyg/TBJso9Ra_9QJ)

Correct.

Where it the rules is stated that while "burn edge to..." is cost, "burn blood to..." is not?

Actually ...

"A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn)."

...so it is stated in the rulebook that cost="burn blood".


No, there are not equivalent. Paying the cost of a card in blood implies burning blood, but burning blood does not imply paying the cost of a card (in this case, you are paying the cost of an effect).
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23 Feb 2021 16:22 - 23 Feb 2021 16:23 #101696 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Paths and burn blood requrement

- You can't play a card if you can't pay a card cost
- You can play a card if you can pay a card cost and you are not able to pay an effect cost. In this case the part of an effect that is price gated will not trigger


I think the latter is wrong.

For example, a vampire with 1 or 0 blood will not be allowed to play a superior army of apparition for no effect because the "target" (here the vampire playing the card) will not be eligible for the effect.

It is different for Form of mist superior because there is 2 different effect for the card, the first one being S: CE with no cost and the second being "burn 1 blood to" so a vampire with no blood will be allowed to play FoM at superior and would be stuck after the first step but would still have played the first one.
Last edit: 23 Feb 2021 16:23 by Timo.

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24 Feb 2021 07:05 - 24 Feb 2021 07:39 #101702 by Tadori
Replied by Tadori on topic Paths and burn blood requrement

- You can't play a card if you can't pay a card cost
- You can play a card if you can pay a card cost and you are not able to pay an effect cost. In this case the part of an effect that is price gated will not trigger


I think the latter is wrong.

For example, a vampire with 1 or 0 blood will not be allowed to play a superior army of apparition for no effect because the "target" (here the vampire playing the card) will not be eligible for the effect.

It is different for Form of mist superior because there is 2 different effect for the card, the first one being S: CE with no cost and the second being "burn 1 blood to" so a vampire with no blood will be allowed to play FoM at superior and would be stuck after the first step but would still have played the first one.



If you have 1 or 0 blood you can play army of apparition because this card has card cost = 0.
However you can do that only on basic, becsoue it has also 0 effect cost.Superior has an effect cost of 2 blood. You are not able to pay it so you can't choose this option as a legal effect. Because cost rules are the same for card and effect cost, if you are not able to pay it action/effect is not a legal play. So if you cant pay 2 blood you can't trigger the effect of superior therefore it's not a legal play

So may statement that you can play a card if you can pay a card cost and you can't afford one of the effect costs is correct. I should have specified what is happening if you are not able to pay the effect cost more sorry.

Playing card sequence is:

1. announce a card play
2. pay card cost. You have to always pay the card cost to even consider any effect of the card. If you can't pay the card cost its not a legal play
3. chose its effect (you can't choose an effect you can't afford or you don't meet other requirements). If you can't choose any legal effect its not a legal play and card cost is not played,
4. pay effect cost
5.resolve.
Last edit: 24 Feb 2021 07:39 by Tadori.

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24 Feb 2021 08:08 #101705 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Paths and burn blood requrement
Do you have any ruling supporting this « can play the card if you don’t have the blood to burn for the effect » thing? That would help make your point plus I could add it to the codex on the relevant cards.

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24 Feb 2021 13:24 #101710 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Paths and burn blood requrement

Do you have any ruling supporting this « can play the card if you don’t have the blood to burn for the effect » thing? That would help make your point plus I could add it to the codex on the relevant cards.

Also it seems wrong, but I'm not sure what Tadori is talking about.

Playing card sequence is:

1. announce a card play
2. pay card cost. You have to always pay the card cost to even consider any effect of the card. If you can't pay the card cost its not a legal play
3. chose its effect (you can't choose an effect you can't afford or you don't meet other requirements). If you can't choose any legal effect its not a legal play and card cost is not played,
4. pay effect cost
5.resolve.

I don't know where this comes from, but step 3/ should merged with step 1. And the "pay effect" cost (step 4) seems wrong, since it would be part (if I understand correctly what you mean by "effect cost") of the resolution.

www.vekn.net/rulebook

Playing a Card

A card is played by announcing its effects, showing the card and placing it from the hand in the ash heap. Sometimes a card will state to put it into play, you should announce its effects and place the card in the play area.
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