- Foro
- V:TES Discussion
- Rules Questions
- what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
18 Jun 2021 20:02 - 18 Jun 2021 20:05 #102504
by Hobbesgoblin
a) what hapens if you play a card on superior, but realize the vampire had only the dicipline on inferior. is the card automatically played on inferior, or does it go back to the hand, or fizles?
b) What happens if you play a card with X costs and announce an X that turn out to be illegal? do you retake the action, or do you have to re-announce it in a legal way if possible?
example: I announced Eldest Command Undeath with x=8 (because I forgot I can't choose a crosstable target), after annoucement we realized that a) I can't choose a vamprie crosstable and b) my prey didnt have any vampires with capacity under 8, but i could have anounced it at 9 (there was enough blood to spend) to have a legal target.
b) What happens if you play a card with X costs and announce an X that turn out to be illegal? do you retake the action, or do you have to re-announce it in a legal way if possible?
example: I announced Eldest Command Undeath with x=8 (because I forgot I can't choose a crosstable target), after annoucement we realized that a) I can't choose a vamprie crosstable and b) my prey didnt have any vampires with capacity under 8, but i could have anounced it at 9 (there was enough blood to spend) to have a legal target.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2021 20:05 by Hobbesgoblin.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Hobbesgoblin
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Elder
Less
More
- Posts: 158
- Thank you received: 40
18 Jun 2021 21:53 - 18 Jun 2021 21:57 #102505
by Kilrauko
For tournament play www.vekn.net/judges-guide ?
Aka the player iswarned cautioned that their play is wrong and they need to make the correct play that is possible at the game state that existed. Judges guide deals with this as follows;
TL:DR Depends.
Seriously, it depends so much on the circumstances. In our casual table, you would take the card back to your hand, place the card you drew on top of your deck and continue playing from that point onwards hopefully more aware of how your cards work. Or if you elected to waste the card and fizzle it if nobody blocked or reacted, that would be dandy too. I'll let the tournament people comment how they would solve the a & b situations in sanctioned play and hopefully they will also comment how their casual groups handle such things.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
The Same that happens when you dirty stack in poker or perform any other faux pas in any game. Depending on the group, you're either allowed full rewind, fizzle, forfeit the card and counters to ash, get called a cheater and shunned by the group or everyone just rolls with it. Sky's really the limit as the solution deals more on how the group interprets the game as a social construct. Rules are clear, one cannot attempt what one cannot do, hence you should never move to redrawing cards and therefore should be able to just take back that one step. However we all know hectic play tends to make the game move faster then calls for right things can happen.a) what hapens if you play a card on superior, but realize the vampire had only the dicipline on inferior. is the card automatically played on inferior, or does it go back to the hand, or fizles?
b) What happens if you play a card with X costs and announce an X that turn out to be illegal? do you retake the action, or do you have to re-announce it in a legal way if possible?
example: I announced Eldest Command Undeath with x=8 (because I forgot I can't choose a crosstable target), after annoucement we realized that a) I can't choose a vamprie crosstable and b) my prey didnt have any vampires with capacity under 8, but i could have anounced it at 9 (there was enough blood to spend) to have a legal target.
...
For tournament play www.vekn.net/judges-guide ?
Warning: Spoiler!
114. Procedural Error - MisrepresentationDefinition:A player is considered to have committed this infraction when he or she unintentionally misplayed a card or a game rule.Example:(A) A player attempts to play Dread Gaze on a referendum that one of his vampires called.(B) A player attempts to play Frenzy during his own turn.(C) A player plays Art Museum when she doesn't have any ready Toreador.Philosophy:This penalty assumes an unintentional action on behalf of the player. If the judge believes the misrepresentation was intentional, see section 160 - Cheating.Penalty:Caution.
&20. Definition of PenaltiesCaution: This is the smallest penalty that can be given. A caution is a verbal warning to a player. The caution must explain the infraction and the consequences if the infraction is repeated. A caution should be reported to the head judge, but does not need to be tracked on paper.
...40. Repeat OffensesThe recommended penalty for the first offense is listed in the "Penalty" portion of each infraction. For the second offense of the same infraction, the next highest penalty is recommended. Note that this increase of penalty follows the order of:Caution -> Warning -> Game Loss -> DisqualificationIf a baseline penalty is a warning, the second offense should receive a game loss, and the third offense should receive a Disqualification. For example, a player's penalty for the first offense of Card Drawing—Looking at Extra Cards would be a caution. The player's penalty for a second offense would be the next highest, which is a warning. His or her third offense would result in a game loss, and fourth offense would result in the player's disqualification. Disqualifications that are the result of accumulated infractions are not disqualifications without prize. At the judge's discretion, a level of penalty may be repeated before before escalating to the next level. For example, an inexperienced player has a habit of holding his cards below the table. After receiving a caution from the judge, the player later repeats the infraction. The judge may choose to issue an additional caution rather than escalating to a warning.
&20. Definition of PenaltiesCaution: This is the smallest penalty that can be given. A caution is a verbal warning to a player. The caution must explain the infraction and the consequences if the infraction is repeated. A caution should be reported to the head judge, but does not need to be tracked on paper.
...40. Repeat OffensesThe recommended penalty for the first offense is listed in the "Penalty" portion of each infraction. For the second offense of the same infraction, the next highest penalty is recommended. Note that this increase of penalty follows the order of:Caution -> Warning -> Game Loss -> DisqualificationIf a baseline penalty is a warning, the second offense should receive a game loss, and the third offense should receive a Disqualification. For example, a player's penalty for the first offense of Card Drawing—Looking at Extra Cards would be a caution. The player's penalty for a second offense would be the next highest, which is a warning. His or her third offense would result in a game loss, and fourth offense would result in the player's disqualification. Disqualifications that are the result of accumulated infractions are not disqualifications without prize. At the judge's discretion, a level of penalty may be repeated before before escalating to the next level. For example, an inexperienced player has a habit of holding his cards below the table. After receiving a caution from the judge, the player later repeats the infraction. The judge may choose to issue an additional caution rather than escalating to a warning.
Aka the player is
Warning: Spoiler!
200. Correction of Game StateThis section generally deals with returning the game to a fair and playable state after certain types of infractions. Only the judge may make corrections to the game state. Correction of the game state is done in addition to and not instead of the application of the appropriate penalty for the infraction.Philosophy:It is important that the player committing the infraction receive no benefit in the game for doing so. If no significant game actions have taken place, play should be backed-up to the point of the error. The error should then be corrected and the game should proceed forward from that point. If significant game actions have taken place (such as having too many cards played and/or replaced), the judge may choose to leave the game undisturbed or may adjust the game state in some other way (for instance, altering pool or blood levels) since players have made play decisions based on the subsequent state of the game.Examples:(A) During his master phase, a player realizes he did not make the decision to pay for a contested card.;Resolution: In this case, very little has transpired since the error was made. The player backs up to his untap phase, chooses to pay or give up the contest, then continues his turn. Once the turn continues he may choose to make the same or different plays continuing forward from this point.(B) At the end of a lengthy turn involving several complex combats, a player realizes he did not make the decision to pay for a contested card.;Resolution: In this case, too much has transpired since the error and it would not be possible to rewind play to that point. In this instance, the judge decides to have the player immediately make his choice of whether or not to pay for the contested card, and then have play continue from the point where the error was realized.(C) Several turns after the occurrence, the players realize that a player had a vampire burned in combat from a strike card that the other player could not have legally played.Resolution: In this instance, too much has transpired and no easy way to rewind play presents itself. The judge returns the burned vampire from the affected player's ash heap to the ready region with 1 blood. The affected player would have had the vampire during his prior two turns so the judge puts two blood on the vampire to simulate the gain from two successful hunt actions. Play resumes from the point where the players realized the error.
TL:DR Depends.
Seriously, it depends so much on the circumstances. In our casual table, you would take the card back to your hand, place the card you drew on top of your deck and continue playing from that point onwards hopefully more aware of how your cards work. Or if you elected to waste the card and fizzle it if nobody blocked or reacted, that would be dandy too. I'll let the tournament people comment how they would solve the a & b situations in sanctioned play and hopefully they will also comment how their casual groups handle such things.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2021 21:57 by Kilrauko. Reason: Code to spoilers.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 Jun 2021 07:54 #102509
by Hobbesgoblin
Replied by Hobbesgoblin on topic what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
Sure In casual it doesn't really matter/the local paly group decies what to run with, but this happend in our local playgroups league, wich tries to mimic a somewhat tournament adjacent environment, basically as a trainign ground for sancitoned play, so how an official judge would, well, judge the sitation is what I am really interested in. ^^
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Hobbesgoblin
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Elder
Less
More
- Posts: 158
- Thank you received: 40
19 Jun 2021 14:04 #102513
by ruiza97
Prince of Dallas
Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas
August 13, 2022
Replied by ruiza97 on topic what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
As Prince, I regularly give -1 vps for sloppy play. So sometimes I win cause I'm the only player at 0 still, while others in the negative.
As for your league play then, DQ the player. That will learn them.
As for your league play then, DQ the player. That will learn them.
Prince of Dallas
Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas
August 13, 2022
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
20 Jun 2021 08:01 #102517
by lip
Replied by lip on topic what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
Kilrauko gave the detailed info from the judges guide, they’re correct.
a) play is illegal - caution and rollback. This is in case you figure it out soon enough after the play. Otherwise YRMV
b) play is legal (the announced blood cost could be paid at the moment the action was announced) - no rollback, keep playing as announced.
We’re often more lenient in casual play (cases like b could be rollbacked for example) but in tournament play there is no doubt: what is announced stands, except if I announcement was illegal.
a) play is illegal - caution and rollback. This is in case you figure it out soon enough after the play. Otherwise YRMV
b) play is legal (the announced blood cost could be paid at the moment the action was announced) - no rollback, keep playing as announced.
We’re often more lenient in casual play (cases like b could be rollbacked for example) but in tournament play there is no doubt: what is announced stands, except if I announcement was illegal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hobbesgoblin
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
21 Jun 2021 15:49 #102536
by Lönkka
I can't even...
You actively want to discourage people from playing VTES by creating an anal-retentive club or something? For me VTES is all about having fun and I think with the Dallas way the fun has stopped a long time ago...
Replied by Lönkka on topic what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
As Prince, I regularly give -1 vps for sloppy play. So sometimes I win cause I'm the only player at 0 still, while others in the negative.
As for your league play then, DQ the player. That will learn them.
I can't even...
You actively want to discourage people from playing VTES by creating an anal-retentive club or something? For me VTES is all about having fun and I think with the Dallas way the fun has stopped a long time ago...
Finnish Politics!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Valas66
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Foro
- V:TES Discussion
- Rules Questions
- what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?
Time to create page: 0.101 seconds
- You are here:
- Home
- Foro
- V:TES Discussion
- Rules Questions
- what happens if you announce an illegal action?/play an illegal card?