Reform Body vs different sources of "Burning a vampire"
02 Jul 2021 12:22 - 02 Jul 2021 12:37 #102617
by Hobbesgoblin
- Can a vampire play "Reform Body" when being burned by a carlton? (wich is no action)
- Can a vampire play "Reform Body" when being burned by a Archon Investigation? (wich would be as an acting minion)
- How about other (Master) cards or events that burn or allow to burn Vampires? (Scourge of the Enochians, Vulnerability, Antedeluvian Awakening, Camarilla Segregation, etc)
- How does the ruling of Reform Body not working on bloodhunts ( [LSJ 20070417] ) relate to the card "lay low" wich was released later? (lay low triggers of a sucessful blood hunt, but does not state "even if there is no action", wich would be nececary to play reaction cards during a blood hunt in my understanding)
- Can Reform Body be played as a result of being burned by "Veles Hunt"? It is a Blood hunt referendum, but there is a ruling ( [LSJ 20081202-2] ) allwoing the playing of modifiers and reactions.
Last edit: 02 Jul 2021 12:37 by Hobbesgoblin. Reason: Appending a case #5 and citations
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02 Jul 2021 13:16 - 02 Jul 2021 13:17 #102618
by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Reform Body vs different sources of "Burning a vampire"
I am pretty sure cases 1 to 3 are a definitive "no".
For question 4, I would guess it is a special case of "golden rule of cards". Lay Low states its own timing "when a blood hunt hunt referendum would pass and would burn this vampire".
It is the same with cards like Rötschreck which are explicitely played during combat even if "The only cards that can be played during combat are combat cards" is in the rulebook.
Once this has been said, it would be a card played outside of any action. But it is stated that it is a action modifier and a combat card. I have until now read that as "can't be used when diablerizing a vampire acting in torpor".
There seems to be a kind of inconsistency here...
As for case 5, I don't see anything preventing Reform Body to be played during a Vele's Hunt or Bernard the Scourge special action.
For question 4, I would guess it is a special case of "golden rule of cards". Lay Low states its own timing "when a blood hunt hunt referendum would pass and would burn this vampire".
It is the same with cards like Rötschreck which are explicitely played during combat even if "The only cards that can be played during combat are combat cards" is in the rulebook.
Once this has been said, it would be a card played outside of any action. But it is stated that it is a action modifier and a combat card. I have until now read that as "can't be used when diablerizing a vampire acting in torpor".
There seems to be a kind of inconsistency here...
As for case 5, I don't see anything preventing Reform Body to be played during a Vele's Hunt or Bernard the Scourge special action.
Last edit: 02 Jul 2021 13:17 by Timo.
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22 Jun 2022 23:16 #105537
by inm8
Scourge of the Enochians
Antediluvian Awakening
Judgment: Camarilla Segregation
and this one because of the same reason as nr 1.
Vulnerability
Lay Low on the other hand has explicit text that overrules the rulebook restriction of being able to use action modifiers for diablerie triggered blood hunts.
"Only usable when a blood hunt referendum passes.." overrules the need for there to be an action to be able to play the card and instead checks for there being a blood hunt referendum passing which diablerie triggered blood hunts qualify for as much as blood hunts from Veles' Hunt or from Bernard, the Scourge special do.
The fact that the card type is action modifier/combat restricts it to only be usable either when having an anarch vampire in combat committing diablerie (e.g. Amaranth) or when being the active methuselah with an acting anarch vampire.
Yes, only diablerie triggered blood hunts are not considered an action, and restrict the use of action modifiers and reactions.
All "blood hunt" aren´t the same;
"Blood Hunt" is a card and not relevant
"Blood hunt referendum" (e.g. Veles' Hunt and Cloak of Blood) or "call a blood hunt" (e.g. Bernard, the Scourge) or "Blood hunts cannot be called on Muaziz" refers to a referendum of type "blood hunt" i.e. it is a trait.
The "blood hunt" from the rules covers two things:
- when a blood hunt is called per rule ( = after a diablerie). Indicates also that in that case, there is no action and no action modifiers or reactions can be played
- the effects of a successful blood hunt referendum equals burn a vampire
Replied by inm8 on topic Reform Body vs different sources of "Burning a vampire"
No, there is no action as stated and nothing on Reform Body allows it to be used when there is no action. Explicit text is needed to be able to use Reform Body when there is no action.
- Can a vampire play "Reform Body" when being burned by a carlton? (wich is no action)
No, reaction cards can only be played by the non-acting Methuselahs’ ready unlocked minions.
- Can a vampire play "Reform Body" when being burned by a Archon Investigation? (wich would be as an acting minion)
No, the below because of the same reason as nr 2 and because there is no combat.
- How about other (Master) cards or events that burn or allow to burn Vampires? (Scourge of the Enochians, Vulnerability, Antedeluvian Awakening, Camarilla Segregation, etc)
Scourge of the Enochians
Antediluvian Awakening
Judgment: Camarilla Segregation
and this one because of the same reason as nr 1.
Vulnerability
Both Reform Body and Abandoning the Flesh lack explicit text to allow them to be used during a diablerie triggered blood hunt.
- How does the ruling of Reform Body not working on bloodhunts ( [LSJ 20070417] ) relate to the card "lay low" wich was released later? (lay low triggers of a sucessful blood hunt, but does not state "even if there is no action", wich would be nececary to play reaction cards during a blood hunt in my understanding)
Lay Low on the other hand has explicit text that overrules the rulebook restriction of being able to use action modifiers for diablerie triggered blood hunts.
"Only usable when a blood hunt referendum passes.." overrules the need for there to be an action to be able to play the card and instead checks for there being a blood hunt referendum passing which diablerie triggered blood hunts qualify for as much as blood hunts from Veles' Hunt or from Bernard, the Scourge special do.
The fact that the card type is action modifier/combat restricts it to only be usable either when having an anarch vampire in combat committing diablerie (e.g. Amaranth) or when being the active methuselah with an acting anarch vampire.
- Can Reform Body be played as a result of being burned by "Veles Hunt"? It is a Blood hunt referendum, but there is a ruling ( [LSJ 20081202-2] ) allwoing the playing of modifiers and reactions.
Yes, only diablerie triggered blood hunts are not considered an action, and restrict the use of action modifiers and reactions.
All "blood hunt" aren´t the same;
"Blood Hunt" is a card and not relevant
"Blood hunt referendum" (e.g. Veles' Hunt and Cloak of Blood) or "call a blood hunt" (e.g. Bernard, the Scourge) or "Blood hunts cannot be called on Muaziz" refers to a referendum of type "blood hunt" i.e. it is a trait.
The "blood hunt" from the rules covers two things:
- when a blood hunt is called per rule ( = after a diablerie). Indicates also that in that case, there is no action and no action modifiers or reactions can be played
- the effects of a successful blood hunt referendum equals burn a vampire
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