Anarch Convert
13 Dec 2021 21:33 - 13 Dec 2021 21:58 #104180
by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Anarch Convert
Found the answer to the question in the
RTR 03/03/2018
I must say that errata of the Anarch Convert would have been a much better solution than ruling that the optional "replacement effect" that it has is what makes the self contesting irrelevant....the "replacement effect" is only made available "as it enters play" and is not like library cards a "level"/function that the card is played at.
I find it illogical that the self contesting isn´t checked as part/at the time of deciding to move the card into play (where the optional "replacement effect" that it has is irrelevant), which would prevent it from being able to be played if one already had one in play.
Looks very much like one more of those rulings that are there siding with intent instead of following the written rules.
Similarly, Jimmy Dunn should also get errata to remove the two exceptions to the rule.
TOOOOO many exceptions to the written rules in this game......
As a consequence, you cannot self-contest a unique vampire or imbued anymore (per rule 4.1. Contested Cards): the crypt card has to stay in the uncontrolled region. Minions that have a replacement effect as they would come into play (eg., Anarch Convert) or that cannot be contested (eg., Jimmy Dunn) can still be played as before.
I must say that errata of the Anarch Convert would have been a much better solution than ruling that the optional "replacement effect" that it has is what makes the self contesting irrelevant....the "replacement effect" is only made available "as it enters play" and is not like library cards a "level"/function that the card is played at.
I find it illogical that the self contesting isn´t checked as part/at the time of deciding to move the card into play (where the optional "replacement effect" that it has is irrelevant), which would prevent it from being able to be played if one already had one in play.
Looks very much like one more of those rulings that are there siding with intent instead of following the written rules.
Similarly, Jimmy Dunn should also get errata to remove the two exceptions to the rule.
TOOOOO many exceptions to the written rules in this game......
Last edit: 13 Dec 2021 21:58 by inm8.
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14 Dec 2021 07:02 #104185
by Ankha
See also paying costs with a Ravnos Carnival: a vampire with 1 blood can play an action card that costs 2 blood because you'll be able to pay for it at resolution (and you have to, you just can't say upon resolution that you don't).
Basically, all that matters is whether the course of action of the player leads to an illegal situation or not.
Replied by Ankha on topic Anarch Convert
Yes, because the card will not be contested. You cannot self contest, but since you won't it's ok.You are basically saying that because it has an optional ability that results in that the card gets removed from the game and thereby wouldn´t lead to a contest situation that the auto contesting rule wouldn´t be checked nor prevent one from deciding to bring the card into play.
See also paying costs with a Ravnos Carnival: a vampire with 1 blood can play an action card that costs 2 blood because you'll be able to pay for it at resolution (and you have to, you just can't say upon resolution that you don't).
Basically, all that matters is whether the course of action of the player leads to an illegal situation or not.
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15 Dec 2021 14:03 - 15 Dec 2021 14:07 #104194
by Bloodartist
My problem was, that the ruling didn't seem based on the actual rules. It was just pulled out of a hat.
As far as I would see, whether a card contests or not is a static check that is constantly in effect, therefore a card entering play (as anarch convert text literally says that it enters play before its ability can be used) it would immediately contest. LSJ ruled that it doesn't contest, but didn't in my opinion give convincing arguments why not.
(fun fact: there is no rule about self-contesting in the BCP rulebook, its only mentioned in a "tip" as if the rule was already common knowledge)
The issue in my opinion is that anarch convert doesn't have the word "instead" on it.
In my opinion the best solution would be if its text read:
"As anarch convert enters play, instead you may choose to remove it from the game to... blabla.."
This way you could choose that it doesnt enter play, and does its thing. And we wouldn't have to argue whether or not it has opportunity to do its thing. If it doesn't enter play, it cannot contest.
I think this same "instead" wording could be used in a variety of different problematic cards, such as first tradition.
Sure, there are other cases where this wording cannot be used and still creates an issue, such as whether or not you get to use Erliks blood-dispensing ability before it enters contest.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Anarch Convert
The LSJ ruling is still valid.
My problem was, that the ruling didn't seem based on the actual rules. It was just pulled out of a hat.
As far as I would see, whether a card contests or not is a static check that is constantly in effect, therefore a card entering play (as anarch convert text literally says that it enters play before its ability can be used) it would immediately contest. LSJ ruled that it doesn't contest, but didn't in my opinion give convincing arguments why not.
(fun fact: there is no rule about self-contesting in the BCP rulebook, its only mentioned in a "tip" as if the rule was already common knowledge)
The issue in my opinion is that anarch convert doesn't have the word "instead" on it.
In my opinion the best solution would be if its text read:
"As anarch convert enters play, instead you may choose to remove it from the game to... blabla.."
This way you could choose that it doesnt enter play, and does its thing. And we wouldn't have to argue whether or not it has opportunity to do its thing. If it doesn't enter play, it cannot contest.
I think this same "instead" wording could be used in a variety of different problematic cards, such as first tradition.
Sure, there are other cases where this wording cannot be used and still creates an issue, such as whether or not you get to use Erliks blood-dispensing ability before it enters contest.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 15 Dec 2021 14:07 by Bloodartist.
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