Spiritual Guidance intent and actual workings.

Are combat cards that are played with Spiritual guidance supposed to be removed from the game, even if they are technically not burned? (most strikes, maneuvers prevent etc.)

the rulebook states the following:

Playing a Card
A card is played by announcing its effects, showing the card and placing it from the hand in the ash heap. Sometimes a card will state to put it into play, you should announce its effects and place the card in the play area.

and

Burn: Move a card in play to the ash heap. A burned card goes to its owner’s ash heap. A burned counter or token is returned to the blood bank.

Combat cards are rarely ever being put into play, but are played and then immedeatly moved to the ash heap (according to "playing a card" in the rulebook.
this does not constitute burning (glosary of the rulebook)
therefore they are stil put into the ash heap, even if played with spiritual guidance.

I think this is against the intent of this card, therefore I would like to have a clarification.

A bit of unfortunate wording in the "Burn" definition regarding card being in play, perhaps, but if the card goes to the ash heap, it is burned (including most combat cards you mentioned).

Or, imagine that cards that are not put in play to stay, but are simply played (such as typical combat cards), are also "in play" for a moment, before going to ash heap - this fits current "Burn" definition.

KoRneeshon wrote:

A bit of unfortunate wording in the "Burn" definition regarding card being in play, perhaps, but if the card goes to the ash heap, it is burned (including most combat cards you mentioned).

Or, imagine that cards that are not put in play to stay, but are simply played (such as typical combat cards), are also "in play" for a moment, before going to ash heap - this fits current "Burn" definition.

A "played card" doesn´t equate to a card "in play"...only cards put/moved into play and that are controlled qualify as cards "in play".

As quoted from the rules above a "played" card is announced, shown and then placed in the ash heap from the hand...the only exceptions are action and strike cards which are placed in "limbo" (not in play, in hand nor in the ash heap) until they resolve and then are placed in the ash heap.

Note that the rules state that an action that is blocked results in that the action card (if one was used) is burned.

Rulebook
If the action is blocked, then any card played to perform the action is burned and the block is resolved with these two simultaneous consequences: the blocking minion is locked and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat).

Canceled cards (by e.g. Direct Intervention) even though canceled are considered played and thereby should logically fall into the general rule of playing cards which means they would not be considered burned but are just placed in the ash heap.

We have to remember that ash heap is just another name for the discard pile.

FYI searched the google group quite extensively to find if played cards are considered burned without luck.

Regardless these are all assumptions made based on the current rulebook and the only proper answer would have to come from Ankha

Lets add here couple of other card that use similar wording:

Vestgeir ❻
Sabbat priscus: Vestgeir can play a political action card from another Methuselah's ash heap as if it were in your hand; when that card would be burned, instead remove it from the game. +1 bleed.


The Erciyes Fragments
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Lock this card to move a library card from your prey's ash heap to this card, face down. You may look at that card at any time. You may play the card from the Fragments as if playing it from your hand (requirements and cost, if any, apply as normal). When that card is burned, remove it from the game instead. Only 1 card can be on this card at a time. Any vampire with a capacity above 4 can steal the Fragments (and any card on it) for his or her controller as a Ⓓ action.

I think we can agree that all of these card intent for you to be able to re-use those cards only once. So this is all nitpicking about definition of burn.

This is a case where writers of the new rules have either intentionally or unintentionally decided to cut down existing steps from earlier version. I'll quote some examples with their numbers so people can more easily google them or the rulemongers easily pinpoint at least some.

Etc for allies, retainers, equipments etc.

Now the new rules do mention this in

But seemingly the part of previous 1.6.3 has been tossed out with the bathwater. Argument could be made how the current glossary explanation for ash heap only mentions two versions;
And thus mandates the card to be one or the other unless it specifically states otherwise to even be placed there. But I'm personally very adverse for glossary to be the source for gameplay mechanics that should exist in the "how a card is played" step.

If minion cards are no longer burned after being played and have been that way since fifth edition, well, I do hope there's been no wrongly played tournament games since then. Sure would be sad if sanctioned rules in effect were mistakenly judged all this time.

Kilrauko wrote:

1.6.3. Minion Cards

Minion cards are cards that your vampires and allies (collectively referred to as “minions”) play. Unless the card states otherwise, a minion card is burned after a minion plays it.

Good find!

The rulebook on the WhiteWolf site from 2010 and on the VEKN site from Nov 2020 (pre the V5 version) has the below that insinuates that any card put into the discard pile (aka ash heap) is considered a "burned" card which is why it is called the ash heap.

1.1.2. Burn: When a card is "burned," it is placed into its owner's discard pile (the discard pile is called the "ash heap" for this reason).

Would be good to add explicit text to the rulebook saying (assuming discarded cards also are considered burned by the above insinuation)

Rulebook
Ash Heap: The discard pile. Any card placed in the ash heap is considered burned. Cards that are burned or discarded are returned to their owner’s ash heap. An action that targets an ash heap is always considered to be undirected.

Kilrauko wrote:

But seemingly the part of previous 1.6.3 has been tossed out with the bathwater. Argument could be made how the current glossary explanation for ash heap only mentions two versions;

Ash Heap: The discard pile. Cards that are burned or discarded are returned to their owner’s ash heap. An action that targets an ash heap is always considered to be undirected.

And thus mandates the card to be one or the other unless it specifically states otherwise to even be placed there. But I'm personally very adverse for glossary to be the source for gameplay mechanics that should exist in the "how a card is played" step.

I doubt the omission of the explicit text was done as part of changing the game/rules and also doesn´t cover all e.g. played master cards etc.