file Merging Group 2 Theo Bell and Group 6 Theo Bell (and similar cases)

01 Aug 2022 14:17 #105851 by Kilrauko
Hello,

with the release of "old" cards in new groups being a thing, I wish to lay out the following scenario;

We have Methuselah A playing group 6 Theo Bell
Name: Theo Bell
[V5A:PB1]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Brujah
Group: 6
Capacity: 8
Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE
Anarch: Theo can enter combat with a minion as a (D) action. +1 strength.
Artist: Carmen Cornet

that gets stolen from their torpor via Graverobbing
Name: Graverobbing
AKA: Grave Robbing
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTr, KMW:PAl, Third:PTr, LotN:PG, KoT:U, HttB:PSal]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dominate
[dom] (D) Steal a vampire in torpor controlled by another Methuselah.
[DOM] As above, and this acting vampire may burn 2 blood to move the stolen vampire to your ready region.
Artist: Mike Danza; Edward Beard, Jr.

to Methuselah B. That methuselah happens to have group 2 advanced Theo Bell in their uncontrolled region.
Name: Theo Bell
[Gehenna:U]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Brujah
Level: Advanced
Group: 2
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE
Advanced, Independent: +1 strength. If there are any Gehenna cards in play, any justicar or Inner Circle member can call a referendum to burn Theo as a +1 stealth political action. If that referendum is canceled or fails, the acting vampire goes to torpor.
Artist: Durwin Talon

Now the rules talking about merging say the following;

ADVANCED RULES

Advanced: An advanced card is a type of vampire card for your crypt. An advanced card has a special icon under the clan icon. The advanced card is a vampire card in all respects, so it can be influenced in the normal manner. In addition, if you already control the advanced or the associated regular “base” vampire and the other version of the vampire is in your uncontrolled region, then you can spend 4 transfers and 1 pool counter to move the vampire card from your uncontrolled region to the controlled vampire card (place the advanced card on top of the base card). The two cards effectively merge to form a single vampire. ...


1.) Is the group 6 Theo Bell considered "the associated regular "base" vampire" for the group 2 advanced version?
I'm assuming yes.

1.5.) Or in the distant future other way around.
I'm assuming yes.

2.) This same logic will apply for other cases where deckbuild restricting groups do not match during merging?
I'm assuming yes.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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02 Aug 2022 12:51 - 02 Aug 2022 12:55 #105857 by KoRneeshon
Rulebook:
Group: Each vampire belongs to a specific group (...). A Methuselah’s crypt must be built using vampires from a single group or from two consecutive groups. This does not restrict a Methuselah from stealing vampires from other groups through play, however.
Group: A number on a crypt card restricting crypt construction. A crypt card with the group “any” is not subject to the group restriction.

So, groups only restrict how you can build your crypt - I can't think of any scenario where they matter during the game.

1) Yes.
1.5) Sorry, I think I don't understand this statement.
2) Yes
Last edit: 02 Aug 2022 12:55 by KoRneeshon.
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02 Aug 2022 21:16 #105866 by Kilrauko

...
1.5) Sorry, I think I don't understand this statement. ...


In the distant future when/if they decide to print out group 6 Theo Bell advanced, can it be merged with Group 2 non-advanced version. It's the same question with groupings flipped hence the 1.5.

The question is mostly towards what is the meaning with "associated" term used in the merging text. With my logic, a deck building restriction mechanic that is not referred during the game should not interfere with game mechanic but it's better to get a yes/no on it if it's just a simple matter.

A Reference point for future if you will. And if the grouping is considered part of a card during game and therefore group 2 and group 6 are not "associated" it's important as it's bound to happen at some point.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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04 Aug 2022 15:05 #105877 by TheLich
Further reinforcement of this is the reason there is not a burn option on Epiphany. All Vampires without an Advanced symbol can play Epiphany because they are considered "Base" vampires.

Rules Suggestion:

Though the wording on Advancement is really mess because it doesn't actually specify what a Base Vampire even means. If the intention is to be grouped locked, then the card should say something like "Advances from..."

If the intention is just simply that it is a "Name Check" then the rule should reflect this by saying something like:

A Base Card is any Card that does not have the Advancement Icon. An Advanced Card is any Card that has the Advancement Icon. Unless otherwise stated by the card, an Advanced Card and a Base Card are considered the same for the purposes of Uniqueness.

Unless otherwise stated a Base Card can be merged with an Advanced Card or an Advanced card can be merged with a Base Card as long as they share the same name. To do this...

This change in the wording both explains which cards are linked for the purposes of Advancing, which is technically not explained, and it allows for generic non-vampire Advanced Cards to exist with their own method for Advancing.
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05 Aug 2022 06:06 #105886 by Ankha

Hello,

with the release of "old" cards in new groups being a thing, I wish to lay out the following scenario;

We have Methuselah A playing group 6 Theo Bell
Name: Theo Bell
[V5A:PB1]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Brujah
Group: 6
Capacity: 8
Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE
Anarch: Theo can enter combat with a minion as a (D) action. +1 strength.
Artist: Carmen Cornet

that gets stolen from their torpor via Graverobbing
Name: Graverobbing
AKA: Grave Robbing
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTr, KMW:PAl, Third:PTr, LotN:PG, KoT:U, HttB:PSal]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dominate
[dom] (D) Steal a vampire in torpor controlled by another Methuselah.
[DOM] As above, and this acting vampire may burn 2 blood to move the stolen vampire to your ready region.
Artist: Mike Danza; Edward Beard, Jr.

to Methuselah B. That methuselah happens to have group 2 advanced Theo Bell in their uncontrolled region.
Name: Theo Bell
[Gehenna:U]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Brujah
Level: Advanced
Group: 2
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE
Advanced, Independent: +1 strength. If there are any Gehenna cards in play, any justicar or Inner Circle member can call a referendum to burn Theo as a +1 stealth political action. If that referendum is canceled or fails, the acting vampire goes to torpor.
Artist: Durwin Talon

Now the rules talking about merging say the following;

ADVANCED RULES

Advanced: An advanced card is a type of vampire card for your crypt. An advanced card has a special icon under the clan icon. The advanced card is a vampire card in all respects, so it can be influenced in the normal manner. In addition, if you already control the advanced or the associated regular “base” vampire and the other version of the vampire is in your uncontrolled region, then you can spend 4 transfers and 1 pool counter to move the vampire card from your uncontrolled region to the controlled vampire card (place the advanced card on top of the base card). The two cards effectively merge to form a single vampire. ...


1.) Is the group 6 Theo Bell considered "the associated regular "base" vampire" for the group 2 advanced version?
I'm assuming yes.

1.5.) Or in the distant future other way around.
I'm assuming yes.

2.) This same logic will apply for other cases where deckbuild restricting groups do not match during merging?
I'm assuming yes.


Under the current rules, the answer is "yes" for all three questions.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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