file Proxies card when change controler

21 Jul 2023 13:50 - 21 Jul 2023 13:52 #108769 by mondragon
Can a player give a proxy to other instead the original card to avoid forgot it and lost the card?

(Disarm, montreal, rack, comdenation...)
Last edit: 21 Jul 2023 13:52 by mondragon.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko

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21 Jul 2023 14:07 #108770 by Ankha

Can a player give a proxy to other instead the original card to avoid forgot it and lost the card?

(Disarm, montreal, rack, comdenation...)

It requires the agreement of the judge (and the other players).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: mondragon, Kilrauko

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21 Jul 2023 20:05 #108775 by Kilrauko
For home games, casuals, between friends and whatnot whatever works best goes.

For tournament play I disagree heavily with "if others and judge agree viewpoint" and try to argue my position against it, just because I see the can of worms it has potential to open when taken to absurdity. Even if I would like to follow that way of thinking personally as social norms and people are more important then imaginary rules and sanctioning for hobby game. However not everyone agrees, hence we have rules that everyone at least pretends and acts like they agree on when coming together. That is attempt to ensure sanctioned games are the same from continent to continent, country to country, city to city and judge to judge.

Now hot swapping proxies goes against the Golden rule of cards "Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence." So playing Disarm, quite clearly says " Put this card..."
Name: Disarm
[Sabbat:R, SW:R, CE:PB, BH:PN, KMW:PAl, Third:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
[pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
Artist: L. A. Williams

And tournament rules (4.5) that allow judge to hotswap proxies in certain situations. 4.5 does not include forgetfulness of a player as a reason, unless my understanding of english language with these words is somehow wrong; " ... If a card becomes excessively worn through play or accidentally damaged in the current sanctioned tournament, or if the owner of the card must leave prior to the conclusion of a game, the judge may provide a proxy replacement card... "

Now take the Disarm and it's "put this card on..." clause. Those are the only situations where judge can within the rules as written hotswap it from the game state.

www.vekn.net/tournament-rules
4.5 

... If a card becomes excessively worn through play or accidentally damaged in the current sanctioned tournament, or if the owner of the card must leave prior to the conclusion of a game, the judge may provide a proxy replacement card or (in the case of damaged or worn cards) require the player to sleeve all of his or her cards before play continues.

When a judge creates a proxy for a player, it is included in the player's deck. The original card is kept close at hand during the game, if possible. When the proxy is in play, replace it with the original. When it returns to the player's deck/hand, swap it with the proxy. This replacement method helps ensure that the opponent is able to clearly see the intended card and to avoid confusion.

In fact it specifically states that if a judge provided proxy is in play, the original which has been kept close at hand (if possible, likely separating the card wearing out/becoming damaged vs player leaving) is used to replace the proxy and only when it returns to players deck/hand it should be switched to be a proxy. With emphasis on avoiding confusion. I fail to see how situation where player has multiple cards in out of game proxy stack close at hand to swap with is avoiding confusion, as that's also where the actual non-proxy cards are going as they cannot go to chill in ash heaps or decks as those are game state.

How about sorting possible confusion earlier in the table, before game has started by declaring you have cards x, y and z that you might have judge come in and substitute to ensure you do not forget them? Does not really matter as the rules as written are as they are.

Now as someone who has both forgotten and have people forget their cards in my deck during tournament play, I can see how it could be a common sense to throw something else across the table instead the actual card, but just be aware it's not exactly rules sanctioned thing unless the rules as written are changed. Even if everyone and their grandparents agree to it.

If they just agree the rules should be ignored for that it begs the question what other rules during sanctioned VEKN games are up to simple agreement to be ignored? Who draws the line in the sand, does it matter, why even have tournament rules if they're not uniform and so forth. There is no way to currently measure exactly what rules people choose to ignore during sanctioned tournaments so is it really something we should even suggest as a possibility, after all leaving it up to players to agree what is okay to bend and what not is a massive can of worms as expectations differ. I know someone is just out there waiting for an excuse to bend a bit with the banned card list for VEKN sanctioned events if suddenly judges are able to bend the rules with player agreement and still remain sanctioned. Are they rules or more like guidelines ? Does it really matter?

Imho this is just one more reason to have those travelling cards just be proxies from the start with fifth edition Governs backing them up, it doesn't really matter if you forget them, you'll have plenty more from one box left to replace with. No need for hotswaps, judge bothering, agreement asking or anything else. Everyone is happy except people during nationals and championships who forget their cards to other people's decks. They can ask if the judge and other players are okay with hot swapping proxies. Those players can check if it is really against the rules after all, it might be just guideline... I wonder if there's question about that in the official VEKN judge exam, if not, there could be in v2, check if everyone sees them same way, might be important to have consistent results?

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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