file Palying multiples of the same card

20 May 2024 00:00 #111475 by dalefi
It was my understanding that a minion cannot play the same card more than once per action, or turn, with the exception of combat cards.

A players minion played a second tradition to block my action, I used Mithras (G3) special ability to pay two blood to cancel a reaction card, he then immediately played another second tradition. Is this legal?

Are combat cards the only cards you can play multiple copies of with the same vampire and/or during the same action (assuming the card text doesn't explicitly state that you can only play a card once per action)?

Thanks in advance.
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20 May 2024 00:53 #111476 by Kilrauko

It was my understanding that a minion cannot play the same card more than once per action, or turn, with the exception of combat cards.

A players minion played a second tradition to block my action, I used Mithras (G3) special ability to pay two blood to cancel a reaction card, he then immediately played another second tradition. Is this legal?

Are combat cards the only cards you can play multiple copies of with the same vampire and/or during the same action (assuming the card text doesn't explicitly state that you can only play a card once per action)?

Thanks in advance.


No. Playing another second tradition is not allowed by the rules.

Longer;

See rulebook under reaction cards for rules regarding playing reaction cards www.vekn.net/rulebook ;

... A minion cannot play the same reaction card more than once during a single action (even if using a different Discipline level). A reaction card does not lock the minion playing it. ...


Various other cards and how they behave are handled there as well. Little bit later you can find how cancelling a card works. Note how "it is still considered played" interacts with "cannot play the same".

“Cancel a card”: A cancelled card has no effect, but it is still considered played.

If an action card is cancelled, the minion does not lock (they do not pay for the action card), and they can play the same action card again.

If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal.

If a combat card used for a strike is cancelled, the minion who played it must choose a strike which may come from another strike card.


Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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20 May 2024 16:36 #111485 by dalefi
Thanks for making this clear. I shared this with another game player and he sent this in response vtesone.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/nra-explained/

It appears to contradict your statement about "If an action card is cancelled, the minion does not lock (they do not pay for the action card), and they can play the same action card again."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding something here.

Can anyone point out my misunderstanding or determine which of these two statements is correct?

Thanks again!
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20 May 2024 18:22 #111486 by kschaefer
It does not contradict. This is the entirety of the blog's comments on cancelation:

An action that is canceled (before it enters the resolution stage) is not considered taken, and a vampire can attempt the same action again. Examples for cards that cancel an action card before resolution are “Direct Intervention” or “Determine“.


The post above is more clear about what happens when an action is canceled (as it is announced).
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21 May 2024 17:05 #111491 by self biased
Canceled actions do not reach resolution and can be taken again.

Successful actions or blocked actions still reach resolution and then NRA applies.

I'm a little fuzzy on whether or not actions that fail outright still reach resolution, though. I
think they do and NRA applies as well, but don't quote me on that until someone more knowledgeable confirms.
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21 May 2024 20:35 #111496 by Kilrauko

Canceled actions do not reach resolution and can be taken again.

Successful actions or blocked actions still reach resolution and then NRA applies.

I'm a little fuzzy on whether or not actions that fail outright still reach resolution, though. I
think they do and NRA applies as well, but don't quote me on that until someone more knowledgeable confirms.


Your instinct is correct, they do and NRA applies.

See www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78475-action-fails-what-happens-exactly for

... "The action fails: the action is not successful, it resolves without any effect, and its cost is not paid."...


Consider it to happen the way it does thanks to Golden rule of cards, aka the previous 1.4 rule that I quoted in that thread, now worded this way in the rulebook;

"The Golden Rule for Cards: Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence."


www.vekn.net/rulebook

As the action is resolved, per current rulebook;

"A minion cannot play (unless cancelled) the same named action card more than once each turn, even if they unlock. A minion cannot perform each action via the same copy of a card in play (including from the minion’s own card text) more than once each turn, even if they unlock."


As the card was not cancelled, the first part applies. Why fail is not cancel, because if it was it would say cancel instead of fail. Two seemingly similar but mechanically differently behaving effects, just like "search" and "retrieve". If the action was not from a played card but say innate rush ability of Beast directed towards Edward, Beast still cannot perform it for a second even if they unlock thanks to Precognizant Mobility from Zöe. Why did I bring Zöe to this, just look how the cardlist has butchered to poor babys name, I just couldnt resist asking some rights for umlauts...
Name: Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit
[Sabbat:V, SW:U, BH:PN]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 7
Discipline: ani cel OBF POT
Sabbat: Beast cannot play action cards. He cannot have or use equipment or retainers. Beast may enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action. +1 strength.
Artist: Pete Venters
Name: Edward Vignes
[CE:V/PV, BSC:X]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ventrue
Group: 3
Capacity: 6
Discipline: for DOM PRE
Camarilla: You may burn a card that requires Dominate [dom] from your hand to cause an action directed at Edward to fail.
Artist: Lawrence Snelly
Name: Precognizant Mobility
[DS:C2, CE:U/PM2]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Auspex
+1 stealth action.
[aus] Unlock a younger vampire or an ally.
[AUS] Unlock a vampire.
Artist: Greg Simanson
Name: Zöe
[DS:V, CE:PM]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Malkavian
Group: 2
Capacity: 3
Discipline: cel obf AUS
Camarilla: Zöe does not get the usual +1 stealth when hunting.
Artist: Daniel Gelon

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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