Break the Bonds presence target
27 Jun 2024 07:23 - 27 Jun 2024 07:29 #111826
by inm8
effect was announced when playing the card.)
Replied by inm8 on topic Break the Bonds presence target
Yes because of not having a valid target (not having any vampires in the uncontrolled region, declaring of targets for conditional effects is only done when and if that effect actually triggers), the BtB action (which is to bleed) is not what fizzles but only the non-optional conditional effect of adding 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region (if theDoes this also means that, hypothetically, if the uncontrolled vampire somehow gets removed during the action, BtB will fizzle?
effect was announced when playing the card.) Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
27 Jun 2024 15:18 #111831
by DavidR
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
:OBL:
Replied by DavidR on topic Break the Bonds presence target
For Dabbler for instance, the player can announce all three effects? fullfil the dabbler codition even if pre or obf effects don't thrigger because of lack of targets?
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
:OBL:
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28 Jun 2024 04:52 #111833
by inm8
effect cannot be announced if one doesn’t have any vampires in one’s uncontrolled region as it isn’t an optional effect and therefore even though declaring of targets isn’t done until and only if the effect triggers there still needs to exist valid targets to fulfill the “valid target existence” requirement for the effect.
Replied by inm8 on topic Break the Bonds presence target
Yes, assuming all requirements for a legal play are met.For Dabbler for instance, the player can announce all three effects?
Yes, but note that thefullfil the dabbler codition even if pre or obf effects don't thrigger because of lack of targets?
effect cannot be announced if one doesn’t have any vampires in one’s uncontrolled region as it isn’t an optional effect and therefore even though declaring of targets isn’t done until and only if the effect triggers there still needs to exist valid targets to fulfill the “valid target existence” requirement for the effect. Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
28 Jun 2024 06:43 - 24 Jul 2024 05:50 #111834
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Break the Bonds presence target
Break the Bond
If you want to use the [pre] effect of Break the Bond, you need to choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when declaring the action (so you cannot use the [pre] effect if you don't have any vampire in it).
Public Trust
Action
Requires an Anarch. More than one Discipline can be used to play this card. (D) Bleed.
[ani] The bleed is with +1 bleed.
[obf] If the bleed is successful, you can lock a minion controlled by the target Methuselah.
[pre] If the bleed is successful, add 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally). It is not relevant in the case of Break the Bonds which is a bleed action but with a mandatory effect that is well defined.In the discord, during a discussion about the announcement requirements for the presence effect of Break the Bonds (and similar) @hobbesgoblin found a ruling by LSJ.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/j5ShUmUt-vM/m/E0CqmXp_R0IJ
This seems to contradict the rulebook, which states:
All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
For me it would be logical that the target for the blood gain with pre should be announced as the card is played, as it is clearly a detail of the action. So imo the LSJ ruling might be hard to deduce by card text and rulebook alone.
So I wanted to confirm if LSJ's ruling still stands.
If you want to use the [pre] effect of Break the Bond, you need to choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when declaring the action (so you cannot use the [pre] effect if you don't have any vampire in it).
No. First of all, it's a bleed action targeting your prey, not an action targeting a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Secondly, in the case of actions with multiple targets, you resolve as many parts as possible of the action's effect. The action fizzles only if all the targets are no longer eligible. RTR 8-AUG-8Does this also means that, hypothetically, if the uncontrolled vampire somehow gets removed during the action, BtB will fizzle?
If one of the multiple targets becomes ineligible during the course of the
action, then it's handled just as if it had always been ineligible. The action
resolves on the remaining targets as above.
Correct, you cannot play Public Trust at superior if you don't have a vampire in your uncontrolled region, and you need to declare which vampire will get the blood.Public trusts works the same then?
Public Trust
Action
[pre] (D) Bleed with +2 bleed.
[PRE] As above, and if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), add 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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28 Jun 2024 12:21 #111836
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Break the Bonds presence target
Could you please restate?
LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally).
Interesting to see that you derived from the below that it is to be limited to unknow facts of just e.g. bleed value but it doesn't include the unknown facts of if the qualifier for the conditional effect is met or not.No. That waits until the action is successful.
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