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Rules question about PTW and having no realiable chance to get any VP
19 Apr 2026 11:39 - 19 Apr 2026 11:41 #116865
by Franz
Ok, so yesterday we had a situation in a tournament that I'd like official ruling because it is having repercussions in our playgroup
Methuselah A has Dragonbound and Torpid blood in play and one ready vampire
Methuselah B, his prey, has 2 pool, 3 vampires in torpor and 1 ready vampire that is younger that all of his torporized vampires, and has 2 blood in him. The time left on the table is approximately 5 minutes.
It's methuselah B minion phase. If he gets to his discard phase he is taking 3 pool damage from dragonbound and getting ousted. So he decides to rush his predator only minion with his remaining minion.
At this time Methuselah A asked the time to be paused and the judge to be called. He argued that Methuselah B's action was unsportsmanlike conduct and that he was only doing it out of spite for having all his minions torporized by Methuselah A.
The judge took Methuselah B aside and asked what was his rationality for the action. He said that he didn't see a way of going forward (he had 1 minion as stated before and his prey had plenty of pool) and that doing nothing would result in his death since that he would take 3 pool damage from dragonbound. He couldn't rescue any of his vampires from torpor because of torpid blood and even if he diablerized one of his vampires he would still take 2 pool damage and still die, so he thought that by entering combat and using some cards MAYBE the table would time out and he would get 0.5 VP.
The judge reminded him in private that stalling the game on purpose was indeed unsportsmanslike conduct, but if he played the combat in a reasonable and timely fashion he could do the action.
Then the players got back to the table, the judge explained that the conduct wasn't forbidden and the game resumed. Methuselah B indeed rushed Methuselah A only minion, torporized him and the table didn't end up in time at that moment. He passed his minion and influence phase without any more delays and indeed was ousted in his discard phase.
So here is my doubt: was methuselah B conduct unsportsmanlike? It is my understanding that once it is clear that you can't achieve any more VPs, even 0.5 from time, you can perform any action you want, you are not recquired by PTW rules to roll over and die or to target your last action at your prey if this action has no chance of achiving you one VP. I also thought that Methuselah B rationality that entering combat to spend some time in order to get time was sound, since combat is a slow part of the game and it's not like he was playing deliberatley slow. But methuselah A is really upset about this outcome and is puting the whole tournment suitability in question.
Methuselah A has Dragonbound and Torpid blood in play and one ready vampire
Methuselah B, his prey, has 2 pool, 3 vampires in torpor and 1 ready vampire that is younger that all of his torporized vampires, and has 2 blood in him. The time left on the table is approximately 5 minutes.
It's methuselah B minion phase. If he gets to his discard phase he is taking 3 pool damage from dragonbound and getting ousted. So he decides to rush his predator only minion with his remaining minion.
At this time Methuselah A asked the time to be paused and the judge to be called. He argued that Methuselah B's action was unsportsmanlike conduct and that he was only doing it out of spite for having all his minions torporized by Methuselah A.
The judge took Methuselah B aside and asked what was his rationality for the action. He said that he didn't see a way of going forward (he had 1 minion as stated before and his prey had plenty of pool) and that doing nothing would result in his death since that he would take 3 pool damage from dragonbound. He couldn't rescue any of his vampires from torpor because of torpid blood and even if he diablerized one of his vampires he would still take 2 pool damage and still die, so he thought that by entering combat and using some cards MAYBE the table would time out and he would get 0.5 VP.
The judge reminded him in private that stalling the game on purpose was indeed unsportsmanslike conduct, but if he played the combat in a reasonable and timely fashion he could do the action.
Then the players got back to the table, the judge explained that the conduct wasn't forbidden and the game resumed. Methuselah B indeed rushed Methuselah A only minion, torporized him and the table didn't end up in time at that moment. He passed his minion and influence phase without any more delays and indeed was ousted in his discard phase.
So here is my doubt: was methuselah B conduct unsportsmanlike? It is my understanding that once it is clear that you can't achieve any more VPs, even 0.5 from time, you can perform any action you want, you are not recquired by PTW rules to roll over and die or to target your last action at your prey if this action has no chance of achiving you one VP. I also thought that Methuselah B rationality that entering combat to spend some time in order to get time was sound, since combat is a slow part of the game and it's not like he was playing deliberatley slow. But methuselah A is really upset about this outcome and is puting the whole tournment suitability in question.
Last edit: 19 Apr 2026 11:41 by Franz.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko
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19 Apr 2026 19:10 #116867
by Damnans
V:EKN Website Coordinator
Replied by Damnans on topic Rules question about PTW and having no realiable chance to get any VP
Since Metuselah B took his turn in a timely fashion, they did not stall at all.
Making moves towards maximizing your victory points in that desperate position where you cannot win the game is the right thing to do.
Stalling is an entirely different thing.
Stalling
A player intentionally plays slowly in order to take advantage of the time limit.
Making moves towards maximizing your victory points in that desperate position where you cannot win the game is the right thing to do.
Stalling is an entirely different thing.
Stalling
A player intentionally plays slowly in order to take advantage of the time limit.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
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19 Apr 2026 19:22 #116868
by Kilrauko
Play to win for a methuselah that cannot achieve any VP's anymore is a topic that has popped up and will pop us as long as play to win as a rule exists.
I recommend you and the methuselah A in question read the following topic from 2019 as it deals a situation where player deliberately ousts themself, action that could be perceived even less "play to win" as performing actions with their own minions.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77880-play-to-win
To quote current rules director from that topic;
Please also remind the methuselah A that cards such as Life Boon exist and no oust is final until the impulse has been passed on player being ousted by each and every player. Until that happens, players are acting with partial knowledge on what is being said and done not to mention claimed by methuselah in the table "Sorry, I cannot save you. *2 mins later* Oh you're being ousted, no you're not, I'm taking sweep from this table." Cross table player can draw said cards from wakes cycled during actions and hence it's more then valid avenue for players to assume to exist.
Please recommend methuselah A to ponder whether or not they're thinking their personal viewpoint where their VP, possible GW was missed or the larger picture where players are allowed to use all the tools the game we play provides, even ones that cause consequences for player choices during the game.
They could have performed actions earlier in the game that made the methuselah b choose another target. Or they could have ousted methuselah b earlier without giving them the ability to have actions. Or included cards that ensure their vampire is not torpored and so forth.
After they've cooled down, they can even talk with methuselah B asking why they were the target and improve their game by learning from it. Or if they cannot see any way to improve from it, just accept it as part of the game. Either way, they do not get to dictate how other people play their final moves in this game, if they wish to do that during gameplay, they need to seek some other game, MTG has multiple cards with that effect as does chess with it's endgame theory full of forcing checkmates.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Rules question about PTW and having no realiable chance to get any VP
Ok, so yesterday we had a situation in a tournament that I'd like official ruling because it is having repercussions in our playgroup
Methuselah A has Dragonbound and Torpid blood in play and one ready vampire
Methuselah B, his prey, has 2 pool, 3 vampires in torpor and 1 ready vampire that is younger that all of his torporized vampires, and has 2 blood in him. The time left on the table is approximately 5 minutes.
It's methuselah B minion phase. If he gets to his discard phase he is taking 3 pool damage from dragonbound and getting ousted. So he decides to rush his predator only minion with his remaining minion.
At this time Methuselah A asked the time to be paused and the judge to be called. He argued that Methuselah B's action was unsportsmanlike conduct and that he was only doing it out of spite for having all his minions torporized by Methuselah A.
The judge took Methuselah B aside and asked what was his rationality for the action. He said that he didn't see a way of going forward (he had 1 minion as stated before and his prey had plenty of pool) and that doing nothing would result in his death since that he would take 3 pool damage from dragonbound. He couldn't rescue any of his vampires from torpor because of torpid blood and even if he diablerized one of his vampires he would still take 2 pool damage and still die, so he thought that by entering combat and using some cards MAYBE the table would time out and he would get 0.5 VP.
The judge reminded him in private that stalling the game on purpose was indeed unsportsmanslike conduct, but if he played the combat in a reasonable and timely fashion he could do the action.
Then the players got back to the table, the judge explained that the conduct wasn't forbidden and the game resumed. Methuselah B indeed rushed Methuselah A only minion, torporized him and the table didn't end up in time at that moment. He passed his minion and influence phase without any more delays and indeed was ousted in his discard phase.
So here is my doubt: was methuselah B conduct unsportsmanlike? It is my understanding that once it is clear that you can't achieve any more VPs, even 0.5 from time, you can perform any action you want, you are not recquired by PTW rules to roll over and die or to target your last action at your prey if this action has no chance of achiving you one VP. I also thought that Methuselah B rationality that entering combat to spend some time in order to get time was sound, since combat is a slow part of the game and it's not like he was playing deliberatley slow. But methuselah A is really upset about this outcome and is puting the whole tournment suitability in question.
Play to win for a methuselah that cannot achieve any VP's anymore is a topic that has popped up and will pop us as long as play to win as a rule exists.
I recommend you and the methuselah A in question read the following topic from 2019 as it deals a situation where player deliberately ousts themself, action that could be perceived even less "play to win" as performing actions with their own minions.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77880-play-to-win
To quote current rules director from that topic;
The matter has already been heavily discussed for more than 10 years. Here's one of the occurence:
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/UNgikrN6FR8/h1g_VQYuFXoJ
> Q 3: Is self ousting illegal when a player can not reasonably
> get any more victory points or a GW?
No.4.8. Play to Win
One aspect of sportsmanlike conduct is that players must not play toward goals that conflict with the goal of the game as stated in the V:TES rulebook (e.g., attacking certain players on the basis of their V:EKN ratings or overall tournament standing, etc.). For tournaments, playing to win means playing to get a Game Win if it is reasonably possible, and when a Game Win is not reasonably possible, then playing to get as many Victory Points as possible.
Basically, if 0 VP is the maximum number of VP you can get, you are free to get your 0 VP anyway you want, including by self-ousting.
Please also remind the methuselah A that cards such as Life Boon exist and no oust is final until the impulse has been passed on player being ousted by each and every player. Until that happens, players are acting with partial knowledge on what is being said and done not to mention claimed by methuselah in the table "Sorry, I cannot save you. *2 mins later* Oh you're being ousted, no you're not, I'm taking sweep from this table." Cross table player can draw said cards from wakes cycled during actions and hence it's more then valid avenue for players to assume to exist.
Please recommend methuselah A to ponder whether or not they're thinking their personal viewpoint where their VP, possible GW was missed or the larger picture where players are allowed to use all the tools the game we play provides, even ones that cause consequences for player choices during the game.
They could have performed actions earlier in the game that made the methuselah b choose another target. Or they could have ousted methuselah b earlier without giving them the ability to have actions. Or included cards that ensure their vampire is not torpored and so forth.
After they've cooled down, they can even talk with methuselah B asking why they were the target and improve their game by learning from it. Or if they cannot see any way to improve from it, just accept it as part of the game. Either way, they do not get to dictate how other people play their final moves in this game, if they wish to do that during gameplay, they need to seek some other game, MTG has multiple cards with that effect as does chess with it's endgame theory full of forcing checkmates.
Name: Life Boon
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, SW:PV, CE:PTo, 25th:1]
Cardtype: Master
Out-of-turn. Boon.
Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. During each of their unlock phases, you can steal 1 pool from that Methuselah. You gain any victory point gained by that Methuselah instead of them, until you are being ousted or until you have gained 1 victory point from this card. Burn this card after you have gained 1 victory point from this card.
Artist: Kaja FoglioTrust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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19 Apr 2026 20:21 #116869
by Franz
Replied by Franz on topic Rules question about PTW and having no realiable chance to get any VP
Thank you for the reply. I was the judge in this situation an my rationality was precisely that one: if the maximum number of VPs you can get is 0, any and all action is playing to win that 0 VP, and rushing backwards even if out of spite is not unsportsmanlike conduct.
But sometimes just the word of a judge, specially one that was also competing in the tournament, is not enough. That's why I created this topic and I hope that now calmer minds will prevail.
Thanks again
But sometimes just the word of a judge, specially one that was also competing in the tournament, is not enough. That's why I created this topic and I hope that now calmer minds will prevail.
Thanks again
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