file Double Velvet Tongue - "cannot cast votes or ballots"

12 Oct 2014 15:42 - 12 Oct 2014 15:46 #66453 by jamesatzephyr
Velvet Tongue says:
Velvet Tongue
Action Modifier / Reaction
[ser] Only usable during a referendum. Put 1 corruption counter on a minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum.
[SER] Only usable during a referendum before votes and ballots are cast. Minions with corruption counters cannot cast votes or ballots during this referendum.

What happens if it's played at both levels during a single referendum? (One as action modifier, one as reaction, or two different reacting minions.)

For all the similar "cannot cast..." restrictions I can find, it's either something fairly permanent that happens outside the referendum (e.g. Reality), or it's something that's based on a property of the vampire that's fairly hard to change during a referendum, like sect (e.g. Seraph, Private Audience, Cardinal Benediction). Potentially, going to torpor during a referendum would trigger the same issue, though I'm struggling to think of a way of doing that.



Two Velvet Tongues are played for a single referendum, at both levels. The inferior hits Arika, who votes in favour, with her four votes. She therefore acquires a corruption counter. Do her already-cast votes stand? Does the "cannot cast" restriction cancel her already-cast votes? If they stand, can she add more to them (such as if her controller draws a Bewitching Oration)?


My ruling-by-fiat hunch is for "cancels the votes out". But "cannot cast" as a wording seems a bar to the act of casting the vote, which she has already done. So I'm somewhat uncertain both ways.
Last edit: 12 Oct 2014 15:46 by jamesatzephyr.

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12 Oct 2014 16:01 - 12 Oct 2014 16:12 #66454 by Pascal Bertrand
Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.

EDIT:
Oh, I see your point.
Played at sup' before votes/ballots are cast, and then played at basic after votes were cast.
Well, votes were cast. Arika would still be casting her votes in favour/against. Regardless of what happens to her votes, she can play Bewitching Oration (or Dread Gaze). And if that happened, she'd still be casting her votes (8, now) in favour/against.
Last edit: 12 Oct 2014 16:12 by Pascal Bertrand.

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12 Oct 2014 16:14 - 12 Oct 2014 16:15 #66457 by jamesatzephyr

Pascal Bertrand wrote: Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.


Step 1: Superior is played, prior to the casting of votes.
Step 2: Arika has no counters on her.
Step 3: Arika casts votes.
Step 4: Inferior is played, hitting Arika and giving her a corruption counter.

Is casting votes a one-off thing that happens the moment Arika's controller says "Arika votes in favour", or a continuous act?


Actually, on that note, is the inferior:

a) For the duration of this referendum, any minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum gets a corruption counter, or
b) In response to a minion voting, play this card and give them a corruption counter, or
c) A minion has cast votes at some point earlier in this referendum (but not necessarily right now). Play this card and give them a corruption counter. (So like b, but with a longer window of opportunity to play it.)

?
Last edit: 12 Oct 2014 16:15 by jamesatzephyr.

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12 Oct 2014 16:30 #66458 by Pascal Bertrand

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Pascal Bertrand wrote: Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.


Step 1: Superior is played, prior to the casting of votes.
Step 2: Arika has no counters on her.
Step 3: Arika casts votes.
Step 4: Inferior is played, hitting Arika and giving her a corruption counter.

Is casting votes a one-off thing that happens the moment Arika's controller says "Arika votes in favour", or a continuous act?

To "cast votes and ballots" is a "one-off". Once it's done, votes and ballots have been cast.

jamesatzephyr wrote: Actually, on that note, is the inferior:

a) For the duration of this referendum, any minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum gets a corruption counter, or
b) In response to a minion voting, play this card and give them a corruption counter, or
c) A minion has cast votes at some point earlier in this referendum (but not necessarily right now). Play this card and give them a corruption counter. (So like b, but with a longer window of opportunity to play it.)

?

c)

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12 Oct 2014 18:44 - 12 Oct 2014 18:46 #66461 by jamesatzephyr

jamesatzephyr wrote: Potentially, going to torpor during a referendum would trigger the same issue, though I'm struggling to think of a way of doing that.


Found one.

Epikasta Rigatos is in play. (Pertinent information: Toreador Prince.)
The Treatment is played on Epikasta. (Relevant card text: "Each time this prince untaps, he or she takes 1 point of damage (damage not preventable).")
Epikasta has no blood on him.
During a referendum, Epikasta (tapped) votes in favour.
Alexandra (card text: "Once during your turn, you may tap or untap another ready Toreador.") wants Epikasta's votes out of the picture. Alexandra untaps Epikasta during the referendum. Epikasta takes one damage, and goes to torpor.

Assuming the above sequence is legal (and I can't think of a reason it isn't), what - if anything - happens to Epikasta'a votes?
Last edit: 12 Oct 2014 18:46 by jamesatzephyr.

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13 Oct 2014 10:41 #66506 by Shockwave
I would have thought they've been cast, so they're cast for the duration of this referendum because Epikasta was ready when she cast them.

The fact she's in torpor now (and indeed, when the votes are tallied) is irrelevant by this point, as her votes were cast.

:AUS: :FOR: :VAL: Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

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