file Double Velvet Tongue - "cannot cast votes or ballots"

17 Oct 2014 07:48 #66704 by jamesatzephyr

In this situation, I think it is similar to modifying the number of vote a vampire have :

mehusalah cast "their votes" which are at this point 1 due to Vox Senis and then Vox Senis is not there anymore so the number of vote a meth has is now 0.


That would be my hunch too(*), but that would seem to go against Pascal's understandable preference for "cast votes stay cast". If removing the source of the vote from play reduces votes, why wouldn't removing the source of avvote from the ready region (vampire goes to torpor) do the same?



(*) By which I mostly mean "That's probably how I would rule in a tournament situation where I didn't have the answer, and someone was unhelpful enough to play awful cards in horrifying combinations(**)."

(**) SWUETPACIHC used to be Pascal's speciality on rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, though, so it's all his fault.

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17 Oct 2014 09:02 #66706 by Timo
PB actually said "cast votes stay cast" BUT, he actually said that the quantity of votes can be modified wih card like Dread Gaze/Bewitching Oration.

So in the case above, a Meth would have cast his/her votes and then, the total worth of his/her votes would be reduced...

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17 Oct 2014 09:24 #66709 by jamesatzephyr

PB actually said "cast votes stay cast" BUT, he actually said that the quantity of votes can be modified wih card like Dread Gaze/Bewitching Oration.

So in the case above, a Meth would have cast his/her votes and then, the total worth of his/her votes would be reduced...


So why would the source of votes leaving the ready region matter in one case (Vox Senis burning/leaving the game) but not the other (torporized vampire)? Why does the former reduce the number of votes you've cast, but not the latter? Would it differ if the vampire was burned instead of/as well as torporized? For example, use Julius in the torporization case with a Revelation of the Sire (Toreador) and a PS: Somewhere. Do his votes continue to be cast? If so, why do they persist when not in the game but Vox Senis doesn't?


If a Brujah antitribu leaves the game via a Business Pressure self-oust, what happens to Unexpected Coalition? (Assume, obviously, that said !Brujah voted in opposition to the !Brujah who played it.) Are the votes or ballots from the no-longer-thre-vampire still being cast, and what do they do to counting the extra votes from Unexpected Coalition? Card text: "Each ready Brujah antitribu gets an additional vote this referendum. When tallying results, if any Brujah antitribu cast any votes or ballots in opposition to this Brujah antitribu's votes or ballots (or if this Brujah antitribu abstains), none of the additional votes from this card are counted." Does it matter if the !Brujah who played it is the one who leaves the game? Assuming the dead vampire isn't treated as abstaining, can you vote in opposition to a vampire who is no longer in play?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Timo

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17 Oct 2014 10:15 #66713 by Timo
Actually, I don't think PB stated that the votes of a vampire in torpor counted toward the referendum. He even asked us to give him advice on the matter ^^.

By the way, I must say that your !Brujah case is a masterpiece of SWUETPACIHC !

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17 Oct 2014 10:24 - 17 Oct 2014 10:28 #66714 by jamesatzephyr

Actually, I don't think PB stated that the votes of a vampire in torpor counted toward the referendum. He even asked us to give him advice on the matter ^^.


Ah, I read Pascal as mulling over three options - abstain, nullify, and cast remains cast (i.e. counts). But he could have just been mulling the first two.

By the way, I must say that your !Brujah case is a masterpiece of SWUETPACIHC !


It's the new craze that's sweeping the nation.


Unexpected Coalition isn't terrible, though it's hard to rely on - but you could justify tossing a few into a !Bru breed-boon deck or something along those lines. (The crypt options for that are a little more awkward than for some others, but it's obviously possible.)

Business Pressure is pretty terrible, though I could see someone deciding it was an interesting way to manipulate their pool total mid-turn to get in range for a Parity Shift, rather than the alternative, sometimes-employed tactic of expensive masters. Obviously, you'd have to run the BP on a referendum before the Parity Shift. Not great, but I could see someone trying it. There are even seven whole copies of Business Pressure in the Lasombra-era TWDA.
Last edit: 17 Oct 2014 10:28 by jamesatzephyr.

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17 Oct 2014 10:54 #66716 by Juggernaut1981
My gut with the Unexpected Coalition situation hinges on the "any votes"...

Armin Brenner is acting, plays unexpected Coalition and votes for the referendum. Amelia votes her 1 vote against. An effect* sends Amelia to torpor during the referendum. Amelia is the only !Brujah voting against.

1) Amelia has cast her vote (cast votes stay cast unless tinkered with by things like TVC).
2) Amelia is now no longer ready, so she casts 0 votes when tallying occurs.
3) Tallying of votes begins and Amelia's 0 votes are not 'any votes' in the Tallying process, so Unexpected Coalition sees only !Brujah voting in favour and modifies the cast votes accordingly.

But as usual... IANPB. :P

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
www.halflingcaravangames.com.au/

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