Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

General misconception that people seem to have here is that you have to put the other guy to torpor to have done anything with combat. Thats in most cases, wrong. Even if you rush your preys 8 cap and smack it around for 5 damage, thats still 5 less pool that he can villein from it so its far from not doing anything. Apart from presence vote decks, people usually can't recoup lot of blood fast.

Klaital wrote:

Even if you rush your preys 8 cap and smack it around for 5 damage, thats still 5 less pool that he can villein from it so its far from not doing anything. Apart from presence vote decks, people usually can't recoup lot of blood fast.

And what monkey-brained numb-nuts is playing big-cap Villein decks without a reasonable number of S:CE & Obedience?

Kuta's Face Smash
Action
1 blood
Choose any tapped minion or a minion controlled by your prey and enter combat with that minion. If the chosen minion is not ready their controller burns 1 pool.
As above, but if the chosen minion is not ready you steal 1 pool from their controller.

Demolition
Action
1 blood
Burn a location controlled by your prey or predator but not on a minion.
As above, but burn a location or equipment controlled your predator or prey including those on minions.
As above, but gain half the pool cost rounded up of the burned card.

Klaital wrote:

General misconception that people seem to have here is that you have to put the other guy to torpor to have done anything with combat. Thats in most cases, wrong.

The forum system have eaten my post, but in short, this is not "in most case". If your opponent defend itself with deflect, action to pool gain (Consanguineous, Parity shift, govern, etc ...), or in fact anything that is neither a block or a villein, your 5-damage combat without torpor basically do nothing.

But, to be honest, usually if you do 5 damage you're very likely to torporize someone anyway. It's far from being that easy however, since it require to enter combat, play two damage card at least, and not encounter any opposition or counter them with more cards.

Jeff wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Kuta's Face Smash
Action
1 blood
: Enter combat with any tapped minion. That minion's controller burns 2 pool if that minion is not ready at the end of combat.
: As above, but that minion's controller burns 3 pool.

That card would actually get played.

Yes, but it would probably push Potence over the top and make combat too strong.

It is this belief that "it would put Potence over the top" and "make combat too strong" that is the reason that Combat-forward strategies are the weakest, by far, of any of the mainstream strategies.

Jeff, you know how incredibly difficult a feat it is to put a vampire into torpor. (And that card probably shouldn't say "minion", but rather "vampire", so let's assume that I created it that way.) This card can be stopped plenty easy, so it hitting once in a while and punking a Methuselah for 3 pool isn't an issue at all, I'd bet.

I'd even go so far as to say that I disagree with you almost 100% and that this card wouldn't move Potence-based Combat-forward strategies up even one level in your strategy chart. They need THAT much help.

Want to play a JOL game with it and see what happens? I'll call Bakija in to help us test it.

I don't think that card would put potence over the top.

You can just block it and it'll just end up in combat without the pool loss clause. Of course, people would start bolting on stealth to their rush decks just to get the 3 pool damage action through, at which point it's very similar to Govern+stealth, except it takes some work for the 3 to hit but can't be deflected. It would also make their combat less good in general, so you'll have to carefully weigh your options there.

It also opens up the strategy of rushing the tapped weenie. Do they take the 3 pool, or do they block the rush with their untapped 7-cap and risk torpor.

I like it.

Klaital wrote:

General misconception that people seem to have here is that you have to put the other guy to torpor to have done anything with combat. Thats in most cases, wrong. Even if you rush your preys 8 cap and smack it around for 5 damage, thats still 5 less pool that he can villein from it so its far from not doing anything. Apart from presence vote decks, people usually can't recoup lot of blood fast.

Well, except that it is usually going to take 4-5 cards and an action to do this. Which, if it results in the vampire in question still walking around and doing stuff, isn't doing you much.

This sort of view is completely reasonable if you are using combat as an adjunct to some other strategy (i.e. blocking, say); if I block my predator coming to bleed me for 3, and then in combat I play a couple cards and knock some blood off my opponent but don't torp them, that is fine. As I stopped the bleed of 3 or more and then wore down their guy, costing them blood/pool. Or if I block my prey's vote and then knock some blood off my prey's guy, I have stopped their vote (costing them pool or momentum) *and* cost them some blood/pool, even if the guy is still walking around.

If you are playing a combat deck that survives and ousts by virtue of proactively rushing and mangling folks, spending that action and those cards to knock 5 blood off a dude and leave them walking around is, essentially, not doing anything. As you'll probably be dead before you get to see benefit from hurting that guy.