file Revisiting Alastors

28 Aug 2017 07:53 - 28 Aug 2017 08:00 #83244 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Revisiting Alastors

It is not about ratios, it is about card flow. The bigger the deck, the more likely it is to jam. Let us say your deck is 50% black cards and 50% white cards. You need both, that's why they are in the deck. The probability to jam on your starting hand (i.e. 100% white or 100% black) is 1.05% with a 60 card deck but jumps to 1.2% with a 90 card deck. Of course, those numbers are small because this is a toy example. They increase when the deck has more moving parts and one wants to avoid jamming over a whole game, not just in the starting hand.


I think you are simplifying this too much. I did talk about card flow in my own post and think it is extremely important. However, card flow is affected by not only the card ratios, but also the card types. If you have a large number of cards that require a certain condition to be met before they can be played (for example stealth cards) then you are very likely to suffer hand jams where you have those cards in your hand and can't actually play them.

I have found that it is very important to have a large number of action cards in large decks, because you can always attempt to do the action regardless of table situation to 'cycle your hand'. Doing so might enable your other cards if opponents attempt to block, so hand cycles even more.

To use my unnamed deck as an example again, it is a stealth bleed deck, but only runs about 11 actual stealth cards (well, not counting large pile of instantaneous transformation). This is because it has a large pile of +1 stealth bleed actions (greater curse). Because bleed action has the stealth, I don't need to waste my stealth cards when every willy nilly caitiff attempts to block, thus I can run fewer actual stealth. My opponents have to have intercept to block my default bleed. My stealth cards also mostly also do something else, for example swallowed by the night gives me maneuver to use unnamed R aggro, spying missions are protection against bounce, etc.

There is also number of other actions in the deck (unleash hells fury, infernal servitor, veneficti, kaymakli fragment etc) to also do, preferably in conjunction with untapping with I.T. and bleeding during the same turn. As a whole, the deck rolls like a well-oiled machine despite being 90 cards. Much of the card flow can be contributed to the fact that its designed to pretty much play minimum 2-3 cards every turn regardless of what the opponents are doing: Bleed with greater curse, use sense the sin for +2 bleed, untap with instantaneous transformation or use it for stealth. Three cards cycled every turn (even more if I play enkil cog :D).

I think making the cards of the deck playable regardless of what opponents are doing is very important for large decks. Easiest way to accomplish this is to run lot of actions and have a plan what happens when opponents attempt to block imo. I guess not every deck can do this. (It's also a reason why I am not fond of playing wall decks; those decks are designed to jam) Statistically the probabilities of hand jam occurring vs you having the required cards is of course affected by card ratios. This is what some people call "skill in deckbuilding". :P

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 28 Aug 2017 08:00 by Bloodartist.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2017 09:30 #83245 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Revisiting Alastors

I have found that it is very important to have a large number of action cards in large decks, because you can always attempt to do the action regardless of table situation to 'cycle your hand'. Doing so might enable your other cards if opponents attempt to block, so hand cycles even more.

This doesn't work if you don't have some combat cards and you know your opponent will likely block you and send you to torpor.
Another case where action cards can jam your hand is when it's not your turn and someone either comes to bleed you (no wake) or enter combat with you (no combat cards).


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2017 09:37 #83247 by agzocgud
Replied by agzocgud on topic Revisiting Alastors
I've seen this discussion countless times, and it IS just a matter of mathematics. A deck should always be slimmed down to the number of cards you need for most games. Regardless of deck. Period.
The thicker deck creates a larger ratio of unwanted combinations. In your scenario, you create more combinations where you don't draw enough of a card type by not slimming the deck. A matter of consistency.

Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2017 12:03 #83253 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Revisiting Alastors
Well we can all agree to disagree. I just look at my own experiences with the decks I play. My most successful and fun-to-play decks tend to be based on above principles. Part of it might be that I favor proactive gameplans - just sitting fiddling my thumbs is not my kind of playstyle.

When I started VTES, I was frustrated with deckbuilding because I always seemed to have the wrong cards in my hand. Once I figured out the above principles, I have had much better success (in terms of victory points) with my decks.

I've seen this discussion countless times, and it IS just a matter of mathematics. A deck should always be slimmed down to the number of cards you need for most games. Regardless of deck. Period.

Yes, it is a matter of mathematics. However your statement is in fact not true. I might go through the complete math at some point if I feel like it. You think that number of cards increases the number of 'unwanted permutations'. While true, you forget that the TOTAL number of permutations goes up as well. Thus the probability of unwanted permutations is not increased the way you seem to think it would be.

IF VTES would have a limit to the number of a single card in a deck, it would be simple and having as small deck as possible would always be optimal. But like I pointed out above, it doesn't. This changes the math considerably. VTES is the ONLY cardgame I know where card limit doesn't exist, thus you may be confused with the deckbuilding discussions from other games.

Note: I never said that deck needs to be 90 cards. I just said that it isn't a hindrance if you build it right. Having a thicker deck means you can have more one-use cards to use for beating the whole table, rather than running out of cards and thus having no tools in the late game.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Aug 2017 12:26 - 28 Aug 2017 12:29 #83258 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Revisiting Alastors

This doesn't work if you don't have some combat cards and you know your opponent will likely block you and send you to torpor.

As I said in my earlier post, you need to have a plan for that eventuality. :) In fact, you should build your deck around those two choices. I do an action, if I'm blocked I do A, if I'm not blocked I do B.

So far, out of my decks that use these principles I've had most success with two: Unnamed stealth bleed and Matasuntha rush combat. Both have definite plans when somebody attempts to block (Unnamed plays stealth, combat ends, or aggro damage - Matasuntha wants to get into combat so...)

Another case where action cards can jam your hand is when it's not your turn and someone either comes to bleed you (no wake) or enter combat with you (no combat cards).


Yes, defense is important to have. Its a strategic choice how much you should have. However I've noticed that its next to impossible to defend against every eventuality. The principle "kill the opponent before they can kill you" is a valid one in most 1v1 card games. My Unnamed deck simply can't have much in the way of intercept, therefore my main defense is simply bloating like a motherf*cker. If I'm rushed there are maneuvers(which couple as stealth) and combat ends. Also notice that defense can be one thing that clots your hand if your predator doesn't actually do anything..

Finding the right amounts of cards is definitely difficult. My decks have been long in the making (my unnamed over a year) while I make iterative improvements. Now however I'm happy with them and they basically never suffer from hand jams.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 28 Aug 2017 12:29 by Bloodartist.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.072 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum