Archetype Decks

Deck Archetypes

The Plan:

Build 5 Different archetype decks. These decks are preferably different play styles, clans, and disciplines (overlap is okay). The goal is to have decks that showcase different styles of play so that players can see diversity of the decks that are possible. *Sorry, no imbued*

Then do the following:

- Create a thread for each deck.
- Tune them with forum feedback.
- Play test them and give results.

The Goal:

To have decks for players which can be used for demos for new players or a loaner deck for players that don't have a deck on hand for a tournament.

Rules:
1) Decks should be competitive and fun. A game win should be reasonably possible.
2) Rarity isn't an issue. We want thought provoking or flexible cards whenever possible.
3) Diversity in play style is the most important criteria. More than anything, the decks *should* feel different when played.

First draft of decks by archetype:

Deck 1. Bruise / Bleed
Win Condition: Combat and Bleed.
Examples: Euro Brujah, Toreador Guns, Ventrue Antitribu Grinder

Deck 2. Swarm (Allies and/or Weenies)
Win Condition: Multiple Bleeds.
Examples: Weenie Computer Hacking, Emerald Legionnaire, Khazar's Diary

Deck 3. Power Bleed
Win Condition: Large Bleeds.
Examples: Kiasyd, Mono DEM, Malk 94'

Deck 4. Wall
Win Condition: Pool Loss from Cards in play.
Examples: Smiling Jack, Dragonbound, Constant Revolution

Deck 5. Vote
Win Condition: Political Actions (probably KRC).
Examples: Inner Circle, Power Structure, The Eldest Are Kholo

- How does this look for the spread?
- Any suggestions, thoughts, or opinions on how to make this process better?

Several decks straddle the suggested archetypes (Legacy of Pander, breed and boon vote, etc)

Also, bruise n bleed isnt torrie guns or !ventrue grinder; second trad or guns is a combat wall that has a few bleed cards. Stickman et al are walls that lunge hard, the combat is not there for minion removal like BnB does, but there as attrition.

Suggestions:
As a new player resource, I like the idea. It could be justified as a subforum. And probably should be.

Now, Ally decks (wolves, nephundi, legionnaires, zombies, war ghoul) are easily noteworthy, as all have similar enough strategies for setting up, but clearly play different (even shamblers and dead hookers play different, even though both are zombies) .
Another category is combo:
Spell of life, purge, Kazaars diary, my kin against the world Baali, sort of Girls, where you try to assemble something to "go off".

I think your purpose would be better served changing bruise n bleed to "Bleed+" for decks that aren't powerbleed/stealthbleed, yet rely on some bleeding each turn, like Vignes, Spirit Marionette, etc, while still including bruise n bleed. Also, Lawfirm is a bleeder that votes with some block in there too. Also similar to grinder.

I think one of the decks should be Assamite starter to show what really can happen at VtES table

The plan is a great one, the problem is, IMO, 1) "selling" the game to newbies; 2) the card pool and designs; and 3) the obtuse rules and minutiae. Those are all interconnected and I'll explain why.

The odds are good that any newbie attempting to play VTES has probably never heard of Vampire: The Masquerade, or heard of it only in passing. But Masquerade has more than a couple of conceptual problems and VTES borrows so heavily from VTM that many things are going to seem alien to new players and in some cases go directly against their preconceptions.

You can give them the quick pitch of VTES but when it comes time to explain the clans and the disciplines, how will you do it? And then, once you've given a brief summary of the clans (for example) will the decks you made be thematically coherent with the descriptions of the clans you gave? Are you going to ignore the grouping rule?

Furthermore, you want your players to have fun, but you've included at least 3 archetypes that are notoriously unfun to play against - possibly all of the decks could be unfun if you're not careful. Including stealth-bleed or power-bleed or swarm-bleed is basically asking the prey of such a predator not to play again. Wall decks are frustrating to play against - their entire modus operandi of locking someone out of the game is guaranteeing they won't want to play again. If your vote deck is the only deck with any real titles, you're cutting out what is arguably the most defining aspect of the game - the politics. New players are likely to have very long turns, and those turns where they're not doing anything (i.e. on another player's turn) are likely to make them bored. Political actions are the only real means of getting everyone involved. Unfortunately, most political decks are really just KRC decks. And voting to burn pool is, IMO and experience, lame - you've basically played a card that lets you bleed for 3 via the scenic route.

And that's what I'm afraid of. That this game comes off as an elaborate form of bean-counting. Turning dudes sideways in order to remove 3 beans from the player to my left is not exciting. Turning a 5-player game into a 4-player game within the first 15 minutes is not exciting. Being unable to interact with my opponents is not exciting. Spending my first 3-4 turns just getting one guy out is not exciting.

What you need, what VTES needs, IMO, is 5 decks that 1) thematically capture the essence of their respective clans; 2) all have a fair chance of winning regardless of seating; 3) have quick setup but low down-time; 4) cards specifically to enable those things.

So here are my suggestions (for you and Black Chantry):
We need more interesting political actions. Cards that provide a global effect, but specifically boost your position or harm your prey.
Cards that speed up getting vampires out. And no, I don't mean just giving every deck x3 Dreams and x2 Montreal.
Cards that make thematic sense with their discipline requirements. Why does Crocodile's Tongue require Auspex? Why doesn't Dread Gaze require Auspex? Why doesn't Eagle's Sight require Animalism? Why doesn't Ambush require Obfuscate? Etc. Etc. Etc.
Alternative ways of getting VPs and/or depleting our prey's pool. This goes back to bean-counting. Playing "+1 bleed" is a very boring effect in my opinion.
More emphasis on Locations as a resource. Locations that provide interesting effects, locations worth stealing or burning, locations that represent a Methuselah's control and power, Locations worth playing!

Here are the beginner decks I was working on (ignoring grouping rule and ignoring antitribu):
Gangrel Wolf Pack featuring Wolf Companion + Beast Meld. Need more thematic tools for dealing pool damage. Deep Song is great decision card but thematically a stretch. Rewilding is what arson should have been. Maybe a few Renegade Garou for fun.
Malkavian Mid-caps with Disguised Weapons (Sniper Rifle, 44, Flash Grenades, Mark 4) and emphasis on Dementation effects other than +bleed (Babble, Deny, Wrong & Crosswise, Random Patterns).
Ventrue Lawfirm with Weighted Walking Stick and Legal Manipulations for theme (rich aristocratic vampires). Needs more interesting political cards - want to have a 'Death & Taxes' archetype.
Toreador with True Love's Face, Social Charm, Soul Painting, Aching Beauty, Entrancement, and The Summoning to emphasize them as "the sexy vampires". Needs more card and crypt support. Also + Guns.
Nosferatu utility guys to get info on prey's / predator's cards. Work with cross-table allies. Includes thrown junk. Need more Nos thematic cards. Suggested 'Breaking & Entering' card that granted +bleed if prey controlled a location, at superior it do as above plus lock and blank a location for prey's next turn. Considering splashing Brujah.

All of these decks are toolboxy and include titled vamps and even capacity spread. There is no bleed bounce. Emphasis is put on stealth-intercept minigame, combat minigame, and political minigame. Would like to make hidden information more relevant, and would like to make contesting more interesting.

LivesByProxy wrote:

(ignoring grouping rule

I'm just gonna say, that while I kinda agree with most of your post, it is IMO a very bad idea to introduce new potential players (or fresh players) to a game, while ignoring one of the most important and best rules in the game.

I've seen it happen - people get interested and go home to make a deck out of cards they have, only to come back with illegal decks, either due to not knowing or misunderstanding grouping rule.

EDIT: while we're on a subject, the best way to introduce new players was, from my experience, when a new player is given a fairly simple but very effective deck, usually created and owned by another, experienced player (some variation of bleed deck is best) and being pushed into a game with 4 other experienced players, while a non-playing veteran sits next to a newb and explains to him, well, what the hell is happening and what cards he should play and why (at the same time pointing out if any truly important cards - like Govern or KRC - are being played and why are those cards so common and good). After several games playing with the same deck, people tend to grasp a rough concept of the game quite well.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Several decks straddle the suggested archetypes (Legacy of Pander, breed and boon vote, etc)

I would argue that most decks straddle the archetypes. Note: I regularly play a weenie combat deck. It doesn't fit well into any of the Archetypes above. My hope is that people could recognize similar strategies to win and begin to understand effective "counter plays".

Also, bruise n bleed isnt torrie guns or !ventrue grinder; second trad or guns is a combat wall that has a few bleed cards. Stickman et al are walls that lunge hard, the combat is not there for minion removal like BnB does, but there as attrition.

To be fair, it is in how you play the deck. I don't think precludes BnB. In fact, the first deck I thought of was my deck. It uses Deep Song for bleed and Combat Rush. The problem is that it was deck designed to be toolbox. I consider Toolbox a deck that easily shift it's win condition mid game. Toolbox decks are very hard to teach with, but very fun to play.

Suggestions:
As a new player resource, I like the idea. It could be justified as a subforum. And probably should be.

Reasonable, but I am not expecting anything but 5 tuned decks at the end.

Now, Ally decks (wolves, nephundi, legionnaires, zombies, war ghoul) are easily noteworthy, as all have similar enough strategies for setting up, but clearly play different (even shamblers and dead hookers play different, even though both are zombies) .

I agree, that Ally deck are very diverse. And we could redo one of the listed Archetypes to make it an Ally archetype.

Another category is combo:
Spell of life, purge, Kazaars diary, my kin against the world Baali, sort of Girls, where you try to assemble something to "go off".

So here are the problems with Combo, specifically. They are not newbie friendly and they are widely inconsistent. Not saying they won't win, but they often lead to the dreaded scenario where they are waiting to die.

I think your purpose would be better served changing bruise n bleed to "Bleed+" for decks that aren't powerbleed/stealthbleed, yet rely on some bleeding each turn, like Vignes, Spirit Marionette, etc, while still including bruise n bleed. Also, Lawfirm is a bleeder that votes with some block in there too. Also similar to grinder.

So BnB in this archetype was meant to showcase a push style of play that recognized combat happens and that you shouldn't be afraid of it. Instead use it to lead to a win condition like bleeding. Note: Combat Rush is not one of my listed Archetypes, because I ultimately consider it either a bleed, wall, or vote deck that uses combat to remove obstacles.

I would point out that a vote deck could have a bleed option and still be considered a vote deck if you only use the bleed for the lunge option. My !gan! ally deck uses like 3 Conditionings. But it is definitely not Powerbleed.

Maybe redo like this?

Deck 1: Combat+
Deck 2: Ally
Deck 3: Bleed+
Deck 4: Wall
Deck 5: Vote+