Risen (from wraith) in vtes

There is a lot of me ranting and analyzing existing cards in this post. I realize how boring that is, so I wont be offended if anyone reading skips to the section that says “point:”.

Introduction:

I’ve been thinking for some time on this, and imbued being crypt cards and not other various supernaturals from the oWoD not makes very little sense to me. Mages are way better than represented in vtes (since very few are even playable of the mage allies available in vtes). Werewolves have some very powerful physical traits, that are represented in vtes with relative decency (they fight, are strong, and can knock a small to midcap vamp into torpor easily if the vamp isn’t combat savvy, which is true in the rpg for young vamps fighting garou) and they typically have the ability to regenerate a life during untap, so they are easily playable, albeit not by themselves like imbued. Mummies, I will admit, I’ve never really dealt with much in the source material, but I’m sure that they could be represented slightly better. Nephren-ka is in my opinion the best mummy ally available in vtes, but I really know nothing of his backstory, assuming there is one. Wraiths I know plenty about, and they are represented in more or less appropriate ways in vtes. Many wouldn’t want involved in the affairs of the skinlands, but if coaxed would be retainers more likely than allies. Those few who would act as allies would be incorporeal for the most part, so would be good at performing specific tasks (as most of the wraith allies printed do, I believe there are 6, and they all have a built in action or thing they can do by tapping) and some are even good enough at managing their corpus in the skinlands than only agg can injure them (ambrosious, tye, and ponticulous). By themselves, they can represent a headache for certain decks, but are unlikely to win you a table on their own. Changelings I know some about (the nWoD changeling was better than the original, the only thing I can say for sure in favor of the nWoD) but they aren’t represented heavily in vtes enough to generalize them. They can do neat little tricks, as changeling in the rpg can, but seem unwilling to really get their hands dirty most of the time (shadow court satyrs play combat cards, draeven can prevent a damage to a kiasyd, mylan untaps a vamp, dauntain black magician can burn an anti tremere and itself).

Then we also have hunters as allies. Carlton is an ally I’ll take any day in most decks, hes just good. Imbued are obnoxious in numbers, with their convictions and events, but Carlton can easily represent one action your predator doesn’t get through each turn, and he dodges most of what would happen to him. Other hunters are decent, but carlton is better. Hunters can sometimes damage vamps, but are fragile when hit themselves. A hunter in a wheel chair is even played as a master card. They aren’t bad, just limited.

Then the imbued exist as their own crypt cards. Something, some kind of sentient thing in whatever layer of the umbra networks with some hunters and gives them powers. This doesn’t make them as powerful as kindred, or mages, or garou, or whatever, but they have their own crypt cards and no mage, garou, or other supernatural but vamps are represented as such in vtes. they have life equal to capacity, making them the most full of life “mortals” in the game. They have a statline of 1, just like a vamp, have virtues instead of disciplines that allow them to “equip” an ability that meets the requirements of a virtue on the imbued. They gain a conviction for free from your hand or ash heap during the untap. This makes imbued really slow, or so complainers say.

Basically, imbued come out of the uncontrolled region, tool up with powers and equipment and conviction, keep stacking conviction, screw up normal decks with events that anger vamps, block things kinda like weenie auspex, then can lunge periodically with convictions providing bleed pump.

Imbued don’t mix very well with vampires (Beatrice being an exception, I suppose) because they use convictions and powers to not suck, using up card slots vamps would use for cards that use disciplines. So, even if you wanted them as support minions, like basically all allies played as allies are, they aren’t very good @ it.

POINT:

Imbued do not play well with the game. Una decks have better player interaction.

About two or three years ago, between games (after I was ousted…) at the Comic Shop Plus in Newark, OH, where my playgroup is situated, I skimmed over the oWoD bookshelf. Not much vampire stuff was there that interested me (I was kinda looking for a copy of kindred of the ebony kingdom…) but I did see a copy of the wraith core book, and a few support books for that game which appealed to me. One of those support books was Risen.

Since wraith wasn’t as popular as vampire, heres the basics of a risen:
A wraith in the underworld died with even more unresolved feelings/business than a normal wraith, so he hears of a way to go back to the world of the living in his body. He has to find wraiths who can teach him the basics of how to do this, and then talk his shadow (all wraiths have part of them trying to pull them into oblivion, it’s an actual conscious personality) into going along with the plan. The wraiths body must still have an intact heart and brain, and not just be bones. The wraith enters its old body, claws out of the ground, and then has to figure out where its conduit is. The conduit is an object (or sometimes animal) that has some importance to the wraith (now a risen) from its former life (a locket with their kids picture inside, a stray cat from their old neighborhood, etc) and its where the wraiths shadow is housed. Once the conduit is found, the risen can go about its business (it normally comes back with a goal in mind). If the conduit is destroyed, the body collapses and the wraith falls into the underworld’s tempest, into a harrowing, and often ends up in oblivion after that.

They often go alone or try to blend with vampires. They can learn Potence, Fortitude, Celerity and Obfuscate. The actual disciplines. They normally need a vampire to teach them these, but this is just the beginning of the vampire tie-ins.

They are very durable, like vamps, and can soak a lot of damage. They don’t use blood (infact, they typically have embalming fluid in them, which would damage a vamp if they attempted to ingest it. If not embalming fluid, they are full of very nasty blood, which makes vamps vomit up portions of their own good vitae.) they use pathos (wraith energy) to fuel their powers, heal non-agg damage, and use disciplines.

I’ve been trying to think of an easy way Risen could be in vtes. Initially I tried allies based around sample Risen from the sourcebook. But that wasn’t fair. They were like a renegade garou with disciplines, and had reshuffle effects like a mummy.

They are durable like vamps, I thought. They can play disciplines. Why not make them a clan?

Then I punched myself in the face because that’s just ridiculous. No blood. Not vamps.

Then I thought about the imbued. They shouldn’t have convictions and powers. Too many deck slots. They should have things that let them play inferior disciplines. Then they play well with vamps, and could still use all the event nonsense.

Imbued are many, risen are few. It would be like having an actual support minion instead of having your deck have to be built around one type of minion.

So, using less complicated imbued rules, risen could be: (wording very similar to imbued rules)

Risen are new crypt cards. A risen is considered a wraith ally, not a vampire. They have one strength and one bleed by default, and starting life equal to cost (like capacity) as is specified per each minion. They have disciplines, like vampires. If they have no life, they are incapacitated (like torpor) instead of burned. An effect that would burn a wraith ally can still burn them, however, as can taking 2 or more aggravated damage and being reduced to no life in combat.
Pathos: a risen, unlike vampires, have pathos to fuel their abilities and disciplines. This is represented with beads, like life or blood. (the beads should be a different color than the risen’s life counters). A risen can never have more pathos than cost/capacity. When a risen comes into play with no pathos, it gains a pathos. During your untap phase, any ready risen you control gains one pathos.
Disciplines: Risen, while not vampires, can use certain disciplines (playng cards that require them as though they were a vampire meeting whatever specific discipline requirements). While some risen can have and use “mental”disciplines, such as dementation, dominate, presence, necromancy, or auspex, this represents similar powers unique to wraiths, and a risen can only possess whatever of these they start out with. Celerity, Fortitude, Potence, and Obfuscate, however, are disciplines risen can “learn”. In addition to possibly starting with these disciplines, any risen may gain one level of any of them. Any ready vampire with superior POT, FOR, CEL, or OBF may burn a blood during your master phase as a trifle master phase action to give a ready Risen you control one level of any of those four disciplines the vampire has at superior. (meaning it is possible for up to 2 levels of discipline to be gained in a master phase)
Conduit: when a risen enters play, search your hand, library, or ash heap for a non-unique animal retainer or non-unique equipment (pay cost as normal, if cost requires blood, pay with the risen’s life.) that retainer or equipment is the risen’s conduit, and if it is burned, the risen is burned as well.
Rescuing: any vampire can move an incapacitated risen to its controllers ready region(gaining it one life) as an action (@+1 stealth if controlled by the same Methuselah) that costs three blood. As a master phase action, any Methuselah can burn a pool to move an incapacitated risen to its controllers ready region, gaining one life and one pathos.
Gaining life: a risen can burn one pathos each untap phase to gain one life. if a card or effect would give it blood, it gains life instead. (example: restoration)
Burning: any minion may burn an incapacitated risen as a d action. This does not constitute as diablerie. If the minion has or can play cards requiring necromancy, they get +1 stealth on this action for each level of necromancy they have access to. (example: Gilbert Duane gets no inherent stealth, Ignazio Giovani gets +2 stealth, and Evil Jensen (as well as any ally who can play basic necro, like Nerphren-ka) would get +1 stealth.

Examples of risen crypt cards:

Angry Johnny
Risen, group 5, cost 5. FOR pot nec
Angry Johnny may enter combat with any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah as a D action. He gets one additional strike each combat. Bleed actions cost Johnny an additional pool. +1 strength. -1 stealth.

Lady in Red
Risen, group 2, cost 4. aus dom for obf
If Lady in red’s conduit would be burned, you may burn 2 pool to remove her from the game and burn the minion who would be burning it instead. +1 intercept.

Little Queen of Spades
Risen, group 3, cost 5. cel for pot obf
Little Queen of Spades can burn a vampire in torpor as a D action. If she is successful, she may gain one pathos, or she may burn one pathos for you to gain one pool. +1 stealth.

Staggo’Lee
Risen, group 6, cost 4. cel dom pot
You may tap Staggo’ Lee to end a combat before range is chosen between 2 minions controlled by other Methuselahs .

Frankie
Risen, group 4, cost 6. NEC cel for obf pre
Frankie may recruit any Wraith ally or retainer as though she met the requirement of that card. Wraith allies and retainers cost her one less pathos or pool. Any ready Nagaraja may take a +1 stealth D action to burn Frankie and gain 3 blood.

Mr. Jones
Risen, group 5, cost 5. DEM for obf
Mr.Jones inflicts +1 damage when striking with a melee weapon. Once each combat, if he successfully strikes with a melee weapon that is his conduit, he may burn two pathos for an additional strike at an additional +1 damage.

Polly
Risen, group 4, cost 6. CEL FOR POT nec
Polly gets +1 intercept if her conduit is an animal retainer. If that retainer costs 1 or more blood or pool, Polly gets +1 strength. Polly may tap her conduit to prevent 1 non-aggravated damage once each combat. If Polly is burned because her retainer is burned, her controller must burn the edge or 2 pool.

Spinal Remains
Risen, group 3, cost 3. for obf nec
When Spinal Remains comes into play during your influence phase, you may choose a unique melee weapon as his conduit instead of a normal conduit. He inflicts an additional damage each strike if striking with his conduit. He cannot maneuver to long range, press to end combat, or use guns.

Ghoulina
Risen, group 2, cost 5. FOR OBF cel
Red List. Ghoulina can recruit Shambling Hordes as though she possessed NEC. She may recruit Reanimated Corpses as though she had superior THN. She may recruit zombies as though she were a Giovanni. Zombie allies and retainers cost her one less blood. Mortals get +1 intercept against Ghoulina’s D actions. Any ready Giovanni, Harbinger of Skulls, Nagaraja, or Samedi may steal Ghoulina for his or her controller as a D action.

Summary:

Risen are cool. Not because they were a huge part of the RPG, but because they have similarities with vampires, were somewhat unknown in the rpg, and have a lot of potential. The only issue is they aren’t easily represented by ally cards. I think Risen make more sense than imbued to have crypt cards. (I actually think mages and werewolves could be implemented more easily as crypt cards than imbued were, and could use disciplines as though they were representing magic or abilities).

I realize that our game is currently out of print, and its unlikely that what I think should be or should have been printed is virtually meaningless, but there has been a thread about a mage variant for some time, so I just wanted to know if anyone else had similar opinions on the risen. Or if anyone even thought about the risen in vtes.

Thoughts?

Excuse me for my rudeness, but :

Mages are way better than represented in vtes (since very few are even playable of the mage allies available in vtes).

Could you please clarifiy ? As a non-native speaker, I have a lot of trouble to understand what it mean, even in context.

The part about imbued not being a good part of VtES is both true and false. They have a lot of good idea, and I see more easily Methuselah playing imbued as pawn than any other non-vampiric surnatural being. But, the card interact clunkily, because it's a late addition with some clunky part who have been abandonned almost immediatly.

Risen may or may not be better, I don't know too well what they are supposed to be. What is sure is that the potential backlash of their introduction seem too much to take the risk. Especially since Vampire is far from being out of strange thing to introduce.

As a side note, you can look at Ankha work on mage in vtes.

sorry for the lack of clarity.
mages in the source material are very powerful beings. they shape reality with just their willpower. the mages represented in vtes are not very powerful. there are very few mage allies that can be played effectively.

with the imbued, the clunkiness seems to come from the powers and convictions. it does seem as though they were introduced and then quickly abandoned, but there is potential in the concept still. i just think that risen, since they are functionally similar to vampires in terms of physical durability and can use disciplines, would flow easier than imbued do.
i've looked at the Mage variant and am incredibly impressed by it.

my ideas are not that impressive by any means. i just wanted to through my thoughts out there and see if anyone saw anything in them.

Somewhat interesting idea... but, complicated in some ways.
1. Pathos & life counters. Complicated and leads to confusion.
2. Conduit. You never said who gets this retainer or equipment.
summ: the Conduit item can hold the Pathos counters for risen-wraith. You may also make any minion get the conduit equipment/retainer, so this can lead to useful combo.
3. Disciplines. Complicated. Someone can do something to.. blah-blah. Either simplify and remove this rule completely, or make it just allow to put master:discipline card(s) as normal.
Also, personally, i don't like the superior disciplines on wraith.

-- small fix:
Ghoulina
Risen, group 2, cost 5. FOR OBF cel
Red List. Ghoulina can recruit zombie allies and retainers ignoring requirements (using superior discipline version, if any). Zombie allies and retainers cost her one less blood. Mortals get +1 intercept against Ghoulina’s D actions. Any ready Giovanni, Harbinger of Skulls, Nagaraja, or Samedi may steal Ghoulina for his or her controller as a D action.

---
Random idea. There could be some sort of master card with rules to risen:

Wraith: Risen
Master. Put this card on the wraith ally you control. Put X pathos counters to this card, equal to thats wraith cost. During untap phase put 1 pathos counter to this card, not (?)exceeding wraith's cost.
Is this wraith lose life and would be burned, it is moved to incapaciated region. This wraith can leave incapaciated region (gaining 1 life) as +1 stealth action that costs 1 pool. Any minion can burn wraith in incapaciated region as a {d} action.
You may put a master discipline card as a master phase action on this card. This wraith can play card, requiring that discipline at basic, as a vampire by burning 1 pathos counter.

Crypt-card wraith could have text "Search your hand, library or ashheap for Wraith:Risen master and play on this wraith."

Name: Wraith: The Oblivion
Cardtype: Agenda
Agenda.
(?)Vampires you control have -1 stealth. When a vampire would come into play during your influence phase, you may remove him or her from the game instead and search your hand, ash heap or library (shuffle afterwards) for a wraith ally that vampire could recruit and whose cost is not greater than his or her printed capacity. Put that wraith into play at no cost. Search you hand, library or ashheap for Wraith:Risen master and play on this wraith.

thanks for the input, i just realised i never said to put the conduit on the wraith being influenced out....

anyway, i kind of like your rules per the risen master card better than alot of the ones i listed out for risen minions. as for the agenda, i can already see that being incredibly good. primarily on tye cooper, ponticulous, and ambrosious.

the conduit was half to stick to the source material and half a way to make risen not broken in combat. they are durable, and could be very good at combat. but you can still melt them with blood to water or any burn ally effects. making them tied to a conduit (i should make the pathos stay on the conduit, and specify that the risen burns if the conduit burns or the minion loses control of it) meant that canine horde or conceal totally was a surefire way to make the Risen not overpowered, just good for support.
the problem i see is hardly anyone knows much about risen, since they only were relevant in the sourcebook for wraith, and wraith didn't even last until the end of the oWoD line.