Bows

I want to discuss bows and their inclusion in V:tES.

First of all, bows are readily available in hunting and sporting goods stores. Archery has become increasingly popular due to highly successful TV shows and movies with archery prominent. (See "Hunger Games" "Walking Dead" "Brave" "Avengers" etc.)

Bows may be bigger and harder to conceal, but they are quieter than guns, making them an ideal weapon for vampires. The argument against them, is that actually USING bows and arrows in modern times would draw more attention, leading to masquerade breaches.

In the "World of Darkness" violent crimes are more common than in the real world. That's why vampires can get away with shooting each other up (though they usually have their ghouls shoot each other up.) But even in the World of Darkness, a drive-by shooting with a bow is going to draw attention.

In V:tES, it is a game mechanic consideration: wouldn't bows function similarly to guns? Lets start there. Following are the bow analogs to guns already in print:



There is argument that there would be no point in printing cards that were functionally the same as guns. There needs to be some sort of gimmick! Or maybe there doesn't have to be.

Some possibilities are:
Bows deal one less damage at close range.
Not usable at close range
Only usable once per round/once per combat.
At long range, opposing minion has first strike. (due to the travel time of the projectile!)
You could introduce a "tap to use" mechanic. (which would affect stealing bows, and how other cards or vampire special abilities interact with bows.)
At long range an opposing vampire with X discipline may dodge.

You can use any combination of the above, and I'm sure there are many I haven't thought of. Adjust the pool cost to be balanced.



Now all we need are more cards to interact with bows! Other cards or vampires that interact with bows, will really make the difference for a player deciding which to use. You could leave the bows with the same mechanics as their gun counterparts, and make the accessories the determining factor.

"Ammo" cards do not convert to "Arrow" cards easily because they would not makes sense. How would "Dragon's Breath Arrows" burn a bow? How would you get an additional strike with "Caseless Arrows?"



What about vampire interaction? There would be a need for vampire special abilities that interact with bows. There could also be other clan or discipline based cards that could interact with bows.

Dude, im n surexhow i missed this thread earlier, but you really went all ou.

Ok, big thing to remember here is that in the wod, arrows would do lethal damage to vampires and bullets only bashing, therefore, the bigfest reason to use a bow over a gun simply does not translatexinto vtes. Bows arextoo large to conceal, and as you said, are quieter, readily available, shoot and load slower, and are virtually impossible to use at close range ( unless maybe you have presence/dominated/demented someone int standing still and drooling while you shoot the point blank with a bow.).

With that in mind, i akowledge that youve put an assload of work into these. I have a cycle of weapons ivexyet to post due to a lack of time, but you have a small arsenal presented, many of which are from your crossbow thread, granted, but still impressive.

But, im not sure there is a compelling game need for bows. MAYBE i could see a crossbow, which would so 1 r damage, usable once each combat, and at the end of combat if it did damage the opposing minion rolls a 6 sided die. On a 1 or 2 they do not untap as normal next untap phase, on a 3 or 4 they burn 2 blood, on a 5 or 6 they takexone unpreventable damage.

This represents howxunlikely it is that you hit a vamp in the heart, but how its expected that thexwould is different than a normal one, tbus comoensating for low damage.

Moving on, the stealth one makez ni sense. Sniper rifle i get, guns shoot far. Really far. My dad has been shooting 1,000 yard competitions with a Savage he bought last year, and does decent in them. Im nit that wesome, and own zero rifles, bur i can shoot and cleave through rope holding a bowling pin from about 10-15 yards with my single action 357 revolver, and the ropes about the thickness of a cigarello. Guns make sense having set range, or even the manuever built in( just an idea, i always assumed the revolvers have a built in manuever because you dont hwve to chamber a round or risk carrying onexin the hole like with a semi auto, you just point and shoot, more or less). I own a crossbow and a small compund bow, and can easily say therexis no way either has knockdown power equal to any of my handguns, so making a bow in vtes hit for morexthan one, especially when the magical freakin ivory bowxonly does one, soeantxmake sense.

Lastly, i dig the arrow idea, and think ammo shoukd have been betfer thiught out, or at least given more cards, but without me seeing a real need for most bowz in vtes, i dont see q huve niche for arrows either.
But, if i did, an interestingcidea would bexto allow multiple arrows to stay on the quiver.

Just an idea.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Ok, big thing to remember here is that in the wod, arrows would do lethal damage to vampires and bullets only bashing

Bow in vampire V20 do bashing damage. And a pitiful amount of it. It make sense, since the explanation for bullet doing bashing is that piercing useless organ don't do much to a vampire, and a bow is piercing too. In other word, in modern vampire, vampires have no reason whatsoever to use bow.

Now, if you want to make gameplay-exciting bow in VtES for rule of cool, feel free. It's as compelling to me as finding distinction between sword, axes, and maces : vtes is simply not enough combat-oriented for this to be usefull.

Ohlmann wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Ok, big thing to remember here is that in the wod, arrows would do lethal damage to vampires and bullets only bashing

Bow in vampire V20 do bashing damage. And a pitiful amount of it. It make sense, since the explanation for bullet doing bashing is that piercing useless organ don't do much to a vampire, and a bow is piercing too. In other word, in modern vampire, vampires have no reason whatsoever to use bow.

Now, if you want to make gameplay-exciting bow in VtES for rule of cool, feel free. It's as compelling to me as finding distinction between sword, axes, and maces : vtes is simply not enough combat-oriented for this to be usefull.

I would argue that nothing that does lethal damage to mortals should do bashing damage against a vampire.

Here's why: damage is damage. If you cut or tear the flesh of a vampire, it impedes their ability to move or act. But vampires do not feel pain or trauma the same as mortals. Vampires and mortals should take the same types of damage, but should treat the two different types of damage differently.

Since vampires do not feel pain, nor do they bleed as mortals, they should be penalized less for wounds received. Dice pool penalties should be lessened, but not eliminated altogether. Cut through the muscle of a vampire and their movement might be more limited, but they ignore the pain and keep moving despite the damage.

Vampires can heal the damage by burning blood, or they can prevent the damage with Fortitude. That is what differentiates the damage they receive. Converting lethal damage to bashing damage for a particular class of weapon is just bad game design.

In V:tES, guns are FAR more effective than in the role-playing game. As far as I'm concerned that is a correction over the role-playing game. Guns should seriously debilitate vampires... for a short time. Those with fortitude can always shrug it off and those without can heal the damage.

direwolf wrote:

Here's why: damage is damage. If you cut or tear the flesh of a vampire, it impedes their ability to move or act.

In the RPG, you can rule that, and it's valid. But other line of though are equally valid, the first one being that vampire don't follow rules of physic anyway, so wear and tear isn't exactly something they care.

But both the "canon" interpretation can be used.

direwolf wrote:

In V:tES, guns are FAR more effective than in the role-playing game. As far as I'm concerned that is a correction over the role-playing game. Guns should seriously debilitate vampires... for a short time. Those with fortitude can always shrug it off and those without can heal the damage.

Guns do next to no damage in the RPG for mood reason : the creators of the RPG wanted to have vampire viciously biting themselves with sword and claw, not combat at a range. It make sense, because sniper would be extremely problematic if sniper rifle were doing anything serious. The solution to any vampire would be to snipe it from one kilometer away, then use the debilite time to stake him.

VtES use other system to make close range viable, and have less problem in ranged combat being powerful, so it's less problematic to have bow doing a lot of damage.

Now, the question is : when zip gun, sniper rifle, and .44 magnum exist, is there a niche for bow ? I don't think so, but a good idea is alway possible.

Ive always found certan thi.gs lacking lacking explanation in the rules forcguns in vtm. The vitae bleeds fro myou when you lose q limb, and can be used to, with effort, regrow it. So, a vamoire is like a human, in that its probably madexof water. But they never include a combat penalty with being shot by a high velocity bullet, like a 357 magnum to compensate for hydrostatic shock( im probably misremebering the name, but its a legit physics and ballistics thing).

Anyway, about where i am is that guns are what they are and havexlimited use already, suexto sce and dodges, yiu neex celerity to usexone good, or atleazt a shotgun and dogpack.

And theres spikethrower, which immitates the effect bows would have.

We lack non magical melee weapons worth using, so why would bows be more likely to ses pri.t than a useful maxhete, katana, rapier.... any staplexnon unique weapon from vtm.

I have a cyclexof auto- equip weapons ill post someday, but there isnt much of a niche for bows.

In a DaV version of the game, definately. But in Vtes now, combat is sadly limited for uses of new weapons, excepting ones that add new functionality to the game for the reazon of helping the game, or making melee weapons more playable.

You took alot of time making these, direwolf, and with feexback from another post nonetheless, i think if you applied ghe same process to like, melee weapons that helped the game mechanically, the results would have gone farther.

Just a thought, though.