More Cards for Serpentis

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

- Porphyrion or Petru Sipos do bad things with cards...

Yes, Beholden + Freak Drive + Sense Dep + Beholden would actually be very broken and easy to build.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So bringing up how this card might suddenly make Bloodlust broken appears to be something of a straw-man.

I don't see how this relate to the strawman fallacy. If we suppose bloodlust is not an useable card by any mean, it's a bad argument, but I don't have the impression Suoli said that you had created the card just to broke Bloodlust or something.

Bloodlust is pretty lackluster even for free, and don't untap you, so I can agree that Bloodlust ain't a real risk. For me, Mind Rape or Sacrifical Lamb are much more scary with this card.

Note that you cannot use the proposed card to make your prey pay your Horrific Countenance. It's the action cost (in blood) which is paid, nothing else.

@Ohlmann:
*Momentary Derail to talk about Strawman Fallacy*
The Strawman Fallacy is about defeating an argument by drawing out an extreme or non-existent example, defeating that example and thereby claiming defeat of the core. Using Bloodlust as the example of 'overpowered use' of Beholden, you are using a fringe example in an attempt to defeat the core.

@Suoli:
Again, you are assuming that the 0-stealth action is unblocked. Without the corruption counter being in play on the vampire, the card is useless. I'm sure the deck could do some things, but it would suffer from the usual problems of Star Decks.

I am not dismissing it based on its power, in fact, I'd be comfortable with Bloodlust getting played more. I like the idea of diversifying the decks that win tournaments.

Nehemiah appear as quite problematic with Beholden. He can play inferior Beholden to put a marker, untap with Domain of Evernight, then make your prey pay for a Summon History. Summon History allow you to burn the entire blood of a vampire without regard of what you take. It should not be too hard to torpor the vampire if needed, but even without that it's between crippling and game breaking.

What's worse ? He can use the superior to get new follower of Set. At first, it's not too bad since they have to hunt, but once he have enough to put some corruption counter, the new follower can immediatly use your other proposed card to refill while burning blood.

I think it's the most exploitative it can be found. It's really nasty.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

@Ohlmann:
*Momentary Derail to talk about Strawman Fallacy*
The Strawman Fallacy is about defeating an argument by drawing out an extreme or non-existent example, defeating that example and thereby claiming defeat of the core. Using Bloodlust as the example of 'overpowered use' of Beholden, you are using a fringe example in an attempt to defeat the core.

Wikipedia disagree :

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

Not that it make the argument actually good ; it's just not a strawman fallacy.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

@Ohlmann:
*Momentary Derail to talk about Strawman Fallacy*
The Strawman Fallacy is about defeating an argument by drawing out an extreme or non-existent example, defeating that example and thereby claiming defeat of the core. Using Bloodlust as the example of 'overpowered use' of Beholden, you are using a fringe example in an attempt to defeat the core.

Semantics aside, that's actually a valid argument when it comes to card power evaluations. Remember, we get to make conscious decisions about what we include in our decks. If I'm trying to break a card, I'll look for the best interactions I can create with it, including the fringe ones. Palla Grande should be judged and balanced in the context of Embrace or Creation Rites instead of, say, Miller.

Disclaimer: I don't have a clear opinion on whether burning an arbitrary amount of blood from any vampire is appropriate for the cost of 2 actions and 3+ cards. What I'm more interested in is your TWDA-argument, especially since you've used it more than once in various forms here.