[Submission] Lasombra & Sabbat cards

TL;DR version first because tl;dr

Lutz Persson
G5
Sabbat bishop: When Lutz announce an action, older titled sabbat vampire may tap to enter combat with him (continue action after the combat, if ready).

5-0
G5
Sabbat

Peter The Humble
G5
Sabbat. Black Hand: Allies and retainers cost him an additional blood.

Camille
G5
Sabbat Archbishop of Brisbane: She have +1 Strenght during first round of combat.

Felice de Berengar

Sabbat bishop: During game turn, you may look at top 3 card from your library and put any number of them at the bottom.

Communal Haven: Basilique
Master
Unique Location. Trifle.
Tap during your turn to move up to 3 blood and up to one equipment between two sabbat vampires you control.

Ductus

Require sabbat vampire with capacity above 4. Unique (or LIMITED)
Tap this card to gain additional vote during referendum if you have other ready untitled sabbat vampire.
Tap this card to give untitled sabbat vampire +1 bleed as action is announced, this card doesn't untap as normal during your next untap phase if the bleed is successful.
When this vampire goes to torpor or strike: combat ends against sabbat vampire, opposing vampire can steal this card for himself.

Vinculum
Require a ready sabbat vampire.
+1 stealth action. Put this card on this vampire and untap him or her. When an effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect.
When an effect that would change control of this sabbat vampire is played or announced, cancel that effect.

Abyssal Bruiser


2 Pool
Demon with 4 life 3 strenght 0 bleed
During your untap phase, ready vampire with you control take 1 damage or burn this ally. He may play card requiring basic and basic as a vampire. Allies and retainers cost you 2 pool more. Burn the bruiser if any ranged aggravated damage is done to him, even if it is prevented. After combat between ready vampire you control and another minion, you may tap bruiser to enter combat with that minion.

Founders of the Sabbat


+1 stealth action.
Put this card on younger sabbat vampire in your uncontrolled region and move 4 blood from the blood bank to the vampire. Vampire with this card have -1 stealth and intercept, and lose and can't gain any title. He or she may burn the card as +1 stealth action. You can't trasfer back from this vampire.

---

Proper version here:


Why i post this ? Mostly because this thread on the forum . I came to conclusion, that unlike many other sabbat clans, there is not a point to play mono sabbat lasombra deck, and while the clan is in decent shape right now, i'd like to see more diversity. I don't want to make stronger current good archetypes, namely g2-g3 fatties (design team did it in the very thread i linked, thanks!) and g3-4-or-5 nocturn bleed. When it comes to lasombra disciplines, i think they are mostly in great shape right now, and don't need much help, yes - even obtenebration is quite solid.

The things that i identified as flaws are:
-crypt selection
-sect cards
-clan cards

So lets fix them one by one:

---

Crypt in g5 should focus on OBT/POT midcaps.

Lutz Persson
G5
Sabbat bishop: When Lutz announce an action, older titled sabbat vampire may tap to enter combat with him (continue action after the combat, if ready).

5-0
G5
Sabbat

Peter The Humble
G5
Sabbat. Black Hand: Allies and retainers cost him an additional blood.

Camille
G5
Sabbat Archbishop of Brisbane: She have +1 Strenght during first round of combat.

*she can be even sabbat bishop if he gets some additional point of disciplne*

Felice de Berengar

Sabbat bishop: During game turn, you may look at top 3 card from your library and put any number of them at the bottom.

*It's bishop of nod, special is quite good, discipline selection is bad, but special and title make up for it i think*



Something like this. Only camille fit existing nocturn deck, but considering that Badr exist, it only make Lord Vauxhall less desirable choice, not that he was run in every version of g4-g5 nocturn deck anyway. Other vampires don't fit archetypes mentioned above.

---

Sect cards are difficult to do, as you have to have in mind various different clans and how it affect them - camarilla have just 6 clans, sabbat have more than dozen if we count bloodlines and for example sabbat assamites and now ravnos. Lasombra already have some of most efficient actions in the game at their disposal, and handful of good generic masters. Long story short:

Communal Haven: Basilique
Master
Unique Location. Trifle.
Tap during your turn to move up to 3 blood and up to one equipment between two sabbat vampires you control.

**This card on first glance helps more !Assamites with their equipment based ousting solution (guarded rubrics), but i can think the black hand lasombra can find some use with it too**

Ductus

Require sabbat vampire with capacity above 4. Unique (or LIMITED)
Tap this card to gain additional vote during referendum if you have other ready untitled sabbat vampire.
Tap this card to give untitled sabbat vampire +1 bleed as action is announced, this card doesn't untap as normal during your next untap phase if the bleed is successful.
When this vampire goes to torpor or strike: combat ends against sabbat vampire, opposing vampire can steal this card for himself.

*while thematically it shouldn't be unique, we don't have limited keyword which would be unique non-contesting card, which is kind of shame.*
*this card improve bruise and bleed/vote sabbat capabilities, as it can backfire hard when used without proper combat in the deck, so it improve decks that need to be improved and don't make s&b or vote deck stronger, it also support mixed titled/untitled decks and even work well within untitled sabbat crypt, overall the design seems successful enough to see print eventually*

Vinculum
Require a ready sabbat vampire.
+1 stealth action. Put this card on this vampire and untap him or her. When an effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect.
When an effect that would change control of this sabbat vampire is played or announced, cancel that effect.

---

Lets move to clan cards: Many sabbat clans (and clans in general) have clan-defining cards:

!Brujah have Dogs of War and Gang Territory

!Gangrel have Shadow Court Satyr, and some other good cards, but they don't really lean toward mono-clan as their clan card work in mixed crypts too

Kiasyd have Great Symphosium and Song of Pan, but they play nice in mixed Kiasyd/Lasombra crypt too.

Lasombra have Power Structure which looks good on paper, but in practice mid-cap vote deck just don't have enough good cards to compete with all-titled Ventrue for example.

!Malkavians have AUS DEM OBF, they don't need and don't deserve new good cards, they are perfectly good even without any clan card (yet they have sybil's tongue and EMP already)

!Nosferatu only reason to play mono crypt are excelent masters (kingdom and +cept non-location), their other cards are trash tier, they can use some help. Well, at least they have Beast, Leatherface of Detroit, and it's worth more than silly actions and allies

!Tremere have Nephandus and dirty little 3 vp (during whole tournament, as prey don't influence out vampires) tup dogs.

!Toreador have Palla Grande and Foundation Exhibit, both lean toward mono-clan decks


Tzimisce have great allies - Ansambonsam and War Ghoul are both top-notch.

Out of those clans, Lasombra is most screwed in clan-cardsdepartment (their disciplines make them beter than !Nosferatu and perhaps !Brujah, but their clan cards are worse).

Abyssal Bruiser


2 Pool
Demon with 4 life 3 strenght 0 bleed
During your untap phase, ready vampire with you control take 1 damage or burn this ally. He may play card requiring basic and basic as a vampire. Allies and retainers cost you 2 pool more. Burn the bruiser if any ranged aggravated damage is done to him, even if it is prevented. After combat between ready vampire you control and another minion, you may tap bruiser to enter combat with that minion.


*good demon which unlike Abyssal Hunter does not fit ally-heavy deck, overall more useful than Hunter as 1-3 off, but way worse when used in very ally heavy deck with like 15 nocturns/hunters/carlton/ossian/young bloods.*

Founders of the Sabbat


+1 stealth action.
Put this card on younger sabbat vampire in your uncontrolled region and move 4 blood from the blood bank to the vampire. Vampire with this card have -1 stealth and intercept, and lose and can't gain any title. He or she may burn the card as +1 stealth action. You can't trasfer back from this vampire.

*it isn't very useful for non-combat decks (to have card like this, the downside is that it can be more useful for Tzimisce freaks than rightful Lasombra, but Lasombra isn't the only founder of the sabbat*

---

When it comes to discipline, i think obtenebration can use slight improvement.

Shroud
+1 stealth, older vampires get +1 intercept if this action is bleed or political action.
Only usable before range is determined. Maneuvers and strikes cost minions without superior obtenbration an additional blood this round (opposing minion may choose not to strike). A vampire may play only 1 shroud each round.

*quite good card for it's cost*

Shroud 2.0 or Dark Touch
+1 stealth, older vampires get +1 intercept if this action is bleed or political action.
Only usable before range is determined. This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage. Cancel the first maneuver played by opposing minion without obtenebration this combat. A vampire may play only 1 shroud each round.


Metamorphosis

Press.
Only usable before range is determined. A minion can play only one superior Metamorphosis each combat. The opposing minion takes this vampire's strength damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution (at close range).

*Variation on Dark Steel, too bad that it might push lasombra combat over the top, it would be funny with Death of My +8 strenght for 3 blood under grapple against fortitude vampire - prevent this 18 damage or go to torpor, oh and taste*

The first two feel about right...

Lech wrote:

Some Name
G5
Sabbat. Black Hand: Allies and retainers cost him an additional blood.

Instinctively, feels a fraction too good. The restriction isn't really much of a restriction at all - you just don't build a deck with allies or retainers in, which isn't too much of a hardship. Though there's Selena who's similar and while her drawback isn't really under her control, it's not like games see lots of werewolves - perhaps every once in a while, you might see Ossian or Garou. OBT/DOM feels probably a shade better than Selena, though - given how potentially well it can stealth bleed - so I might do something to take the edge off that. Perhaps something more like OBT/POT (for your theme) + dom + something else. There's a small clutch of Animalism in 4/5 from Paulo, Otieno and Conrad, so maybe OBT POT ani dom? Animalism isn't a bad thing to go alongside a more combative element, given possible Carrion Crows, maybe.

Lech wrote:

Communal Haven: Basilique
Master
Unique Location. Trifle.
Tap during your turn to move up to 3 blood and/or equipment between two sabbat vampires you control.

Technical question: do you mean that I can move 2 blood and 1 equipment, 1 blood and 2 equipment etc?

Lech wrote:

When it comes to discipline, i think obtenebration can use slight improvement.

Shroud
+1 stealth, older vampires get +1 intercept if this action is bleed or political action.
Maneuvers and strikes cost opposing minion an two additional blood this round (opposing minion may choose not to strike).

At inferior, I'm not sure that weak stealth is much of an improvement.

At superior:

- given the clan has easy access to Immortal Grapple, restricting the ability to maneuver so harshly for free seems quite difficult. Yes, the Lasombra can Shadow Step (superior) to set range, but that costs them 2 blood. Similarly, Drawing out the Beast in an ani/pot deck would restrict the ability to maneuver, but at least gives some mild compensation (+1 damage).

- allies can't strike at all. I'd consider going to "opposing vampire" or "an additional two blood or one additional life" or something like that.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

The first two feel about right...

Lech wrote:

Some Name
G5
Sabbat. Black Hand: Allies and retainers cost him an additional blood.

Instinctively, feels a fraction too good. The restriction isn't really much of a restriction at all - you just don't build a deck with allies or retainers in, which isn't too much of a hardship. Though there's Selena who's similar and while her drawback isn't really under her control, it's not like games see lots of werewolves - perhaps every once in a while, you might see Ossian or Garou. OBT/DOM feels probably a shade better than Selena, though - given how potentially well it can stealth bleed - so I might do something to take the edge off that. Perhaps something more like OBT/POT (for your theme) + dom + something else. There's a small clutch of Animalism in 4/5 from Paulo, Otieno and Conrad, so maybe OBT POT ani dom? Animalism isn't a bad thing to go alongside a more combative element, given possible Carrion Crows, maybe.

Given how DOM MYT OBT or DOM OBT aus pot are already on 6 cap (and DOM OBT pot black hand vampire with 5 cap), and those are better candidates for stealth bleed deck, i don't feel that adding POT threatren game balance too much, give how POT vampire usually don't lean toward S&B strategies. On the other hand, it's improving already decent DOM OBT crypt, while it don't really play nice with usual Nocturn build, it's decent for other tasks.

Not denying that 6 cap without big drawback with all in-clan superiors are strongand are always going to improve the clan with good discipline selection like for example lasombra, but there are better vampires in 6 cap like AUS THA dom 6 cap Archbishop, which is really good.

I think this strong vampire would require proper playtesting and perhaps even dropping black hand status and/or other nerfs.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

Communal Haven: Basilique
Master
Unique Location. Trifle.
Tap during your turn to move up to 3 blood and/or equipment between two sabbat vampires you control.

Technical question: do you mean that I can move 2 blood and 1 equipment, 1 blood and 2 equipment etc?

Looks like i have to work a bit on wording, i wanted 0-3 blood and 0-1 equipment.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

When it comes to discipline, i think obtenebration can use slight improvement.

Shroud
+1 stealth, older vampires get +1 intercept if this action is bleed or political action.
Maneuvers and strikes cost opposing minion an two additional blood this round (opposing minion may choose not to strike).

At inferior, I'm not sure that weak stealth is much of an improvement.

At superior:

- given the clan has easy access to Immortal Grapple, restricting the ability to maneuver so harshly for free seems quite difficult. Yes, the Lasombra can Shadow Step (superior) to set range, but that costs them 2 blood. Similarly, Drawing out the Beast in an ani/pot deck would restrict the ability to maneuver, but at least gives some mild compensation (+1 damage).

- allies can't strike at all. I'd consider going to "opposing vampire" or "an additional two blood or one additional life" or something like that.

It's in line with obtenebration theme to screw allies over:
-entombment burn ally
-one stealth prevent them from blocking
-now this prevent to strike at all

It's not restricting, opposing vampire can still maneuver and screw you over with it. It's mainly about "want to use that .44 ? pay 4/6 blood up front, then i'll use my other cards to screw you over with that carrion crows with maneuver (OBT POT one) or just throw a lid at you, at worst it's 3 blood for you majesty because screw you. Fits themaically and isn't that hot in Immortal Grapple deck as opponent wouldn't strike at all quite often. On the other hand it isn't plain screw you card and require superior OBT to play which means it won't be used in combat by chumps with POT obt that are so common today.

I feel the card isn't that weak. Even inferior have additional uses (you can give your nocturn +1 stealth on bleed for example, not that it would be used more than 1-2 off in most nocturn decks due to useless superior for that decks and "stealth not for bleed" issue).

The deck benefiting the most are in order:
-big capacity combat lasombra
-combat OBT POT lasombra
-big capacity political/bleed lasombra as it's another stealth

It's based on lvl 2 OBT power Shroud of Night that create ball of darkness where minions without obtenebration can't see anything.

Lech wrote:

It's not restricting, opposing vampire can still maneuver and screw you over with it. It's mainly about "want to use that .44 ? pay 4/6 blood up front, then i'll use my other cards to screw you over with that carrion crows with maneuver (OBT POT one) or just throw a lid at you, at worst it's 3 blood for you majesty because screw you.

It's not restricting, it's just I'm going to fuck you in every way possible. And no, it's not three blood to Majesty if you have the sense to include some maneuvers in your deck - you can come back to close range with a maneuver from an unblocked Bum's Rush (or similar rush action), with a maneuver from inferior Shadow Step, with a maneuver from Dark Steel, with a maneuver from Fae Contortion. A deck that has the audacity to maneuver away from you twice (because you Shadow Step back) has just had to pay four blood to get to long, so you'd need 5 blood and 2 maneuvers to play Majesty(*). If you have less than 4 blood, you can't get to long, if the Obtenebration player has a single maneuver.

Stay at close, you're very likely dead. Go to long, you're dead anyway.

Whatever you want to call that, it's heading into really unpleasant trump combat territory, where you can't properly benefit from defensive maneuvers, can't dodge, can't S:CE, can't hit back except with hands.



(*) Edit to add: sorry, 7 blood to play Majesty if you maneuver back, because the Majesty itself costs two extra blood for being a strike.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

It's not restricting, opposing vampire can still maneuver and screw you over with it. It's mainly about "want to use that .44 ? pay 4/6 blood up front, then i'll use my other cards to screw you over with that carrion crows with maneuver (OBT POT one) or just throw a lid at you, at worst it's 3 blood for you majesty because screw you.

It's not restricting, it's just I'm going to fuck you in every way possible. And no, it's not three blood to Majesty if you have the sense to include some maneuvers in your deck - you can come back to close range with a maneuver from an unblocked Bum's Rush (or similar rush action), with a maneuver from inferior Shadow Step, with a maneuver from Dark Steel, with a maneuver from Fae Contortion. A deck that has the audacity to maneuver away from you twice (because you Shadow Step back) has just had to pay four blood to get to long, so you'd need 5 blood and 2 maneuvers to play Majesty. If you have less than 4 blood, you can't get to long, if the Obtenebration player has a single maneuver.

Stay at close, you're very likely dead. Go to long, you're dead anyway.

Whatever you want to call that, it's heading into really unpleasant trump combat territory, where you can't properly benefit from defensive maneuvers, can't dodge, can't S:CE, can't hit back except with hands.

Well, i can see how it's better in this regard than simple POT combat that don't have many ways to maneuver back. On the other hand you have to use 6 cap to get POT OBT at least (6 cap, 7 cap, 7 cap, 8 cap, 8 cap, then 9+ cap) with no special rules toward combat.

Lech wrote:

Well, i can see how it's better in this regard than simple POT combat that don't have many ways to maneuver back. On the other hand you have to use 6 cap to get POT OBT at least (6 cap, 7 cap, 7 cap, 8 cap, 8 cap, then 9+ cap) with no special rules toward combat.

But this isn't compared to simple POT combat with no maneuvers. This is compared to obf/pot., where I may be able to maneuver away, and it doesn't cost me 2, 4, 6 blood to try This is compared to cel/pot, where I may be able to maneuver away and it doesn't cost me 2, 4, 6 blood to try. This is compared to other combat strategies, where I still have defensive options.

Nor is being 6 capacity (5 with SomeName #1) some magical boundary. Combat decks use bigger vampires. Combat decks use smaller vampires. Combat decks use Enkidu. Combat decks use Tariq. Combat decks use Lazverinus. None of them get to charge me 5 blood to even try to Majesty, even though they're using a vampire who has passed this magical 6 capacity boundary.