[submissions] Primogen cards

In the LARP, status traits are used in political challenges. Vampires could loan status to other vampires or spend them to give other vampires status. A prince could spend status to remove another vampire's status.

In V:tES, titles are votes, and titles can do other things. But as Brandon mentioned in another thread, Primogen are supposed to be elders and leaders of their clan.

There could be more ways in which Primogen use their position besides a single vote. While not as powerful as Princes, they should have some clout. So, I am suggesting a few ways in which a Primogen can use her position, at the cost of her vote.


"Political Factor"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on a vampire of the same clan. This vampire has +2 vote on referendums called by either vampire. The acting Primogen has one less vote. Burn this card if the acting Primogen is not ready.

Notes: this gives a player more ability to pass his or own votes at the expense of vote defense.


"Clan Operative"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another vampire you control of the same clan. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire has +1 bleed, and an additional +1 bleed if the target Methuselah controls a Sabbat vampire.

Notes: the idea is that a Primogen uses her political leverage to empower an underling to take action against her controller's enemies.


"Provocateur"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another Camarilla vampire you control. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
You may tap this card for +3 votes during a referendum called by another Methuselah. If the acting Primogen commits diablarie, this vampire is the target of the Blood Hunt.

Notes: this gives vote defense at the expense of a single vote. Since vote defense is terrible in general, I included the blood hunt protection. This would be the Primogen allowing an underling to step into the spotlight, and throwing her under the bus when things go bad.


"Advocate"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another vampire you control of the same clan. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire may move one blood from the blood bank to an uncontrolled vampire of the same clan as a +2 stealth action.

Notes: this would be an example of a Primogen using her influence to recruit more vampires for her controller.


"Steward"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on a younger Camarilla vampire you control. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire may equip, employ or recruit as if the acting Primogen meets the requirements. When you employ a retainer or equip you may move the retainer or equipment to the acting Primogen.

Notes: in this instance the Primogen is empowering another vampire to act in her name and reap the benefits of that vampire's actions.

This may be a good example of what was good in the RPG may not be very good in the CCG. The power level on all of these cards is too low. Now I did notice that you could use the cards repeatedly, accumulating the "this vampire gets one fewer vote" mechanism. Was that intended? You could have multiple provocateurs out there.

Generic points that apply to most of them, so I won't repeat them:

1) The book-keeping required is a bit annoying, as it can also be with cards like Sensory Deprivation. Having to track who put it in play can be annoying, especially if you end up with multiple Primogens. It's not a killer problem, but if there are ways of avoiding it, that would be good.

2) A primogen can play multiple, because ending up on -7 votes is fine. (You just cast 0 votes when it comes to a referendum.) Not necessarily a problem, but it means the -1 vote thing may not be very relevant.

3) How do they interact with everyone's favourite vampire, Vlad Tepes ?

4) Don't forget that we have some very small Primogen these days. It's not all crappy 9 cap Ventrue, there's also two 4 caps and three 5 caps, all in group 4/5.

direwolf wrote:

"Political Factor"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on a vampire of the same clan. This vampire has +2 vote on referendums called by either vampire. The acting Primogen has one less vote. Burn this card if the acting Primogen is not ready.

In small quantities, it gives you a total of +1 vote, but then it adds up. And it's only on two votes per turn. But later on, you're still drawing this when you'd rather be drawing Kine Resources Contested - if you can pass your vote, wasting an action to get this out of your hand is a bit of a pain. Thing is, the main place you want 'overkill' with votes is Voter Captivation, and if you have Voter Captivation, you're probably just playing Presence modifiers instead.

direwolf wrote:

"Clan Operative"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another vampire you control of the same clan. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire has +1 bleed, and an additional +1 bleed if the target Methuselah controls a Sabbat vampire.

That adds up quite quickly. It's better than a laptop (free) or a cameraphone (it stacks with other actions), and it stacks with itself, so I could see it being played a fair bit. Not sure that people would want to see it played with 4 caps, mind - although as written, it's zero stealth to put it in play. I'd expect people to try to abuse the hell out of it during a playtest, and could see it being slightly curbed - perhaps one per vampire, perhaps a cost of "X blood" where X is the nmber of Clan Operatives on the target vampire already etc.

The Sabbat thing could generate interest for people doing things like playing Derange (e.g. with Bloodfeud tagging along), or temporary theft + a clan/sect changer, which while possibly not the strongest deck in the world would be potentially fun.

direwolf wrote:

"Provocateur"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another Camarilla vampire you control. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
You may tap this card for +3 votes during a referendum called by another Methuselah. If the acting Primogen commits diablarie, this vampire is the target of the Blood Hunt.

Technical question: who gets the votes? Are they given to the vampire this is on? Are they given to the vampire or the Methuselah? The card is vague, as it starts with "You may" but doesn't say who gets them.

Also, just as a technical point, the +3 votes don't work during blood hunts, because that's not "called" by another Methuselah - it just happens. You could extend it to that, if you wanted e.g. "referendums that you did not call" or "referendums called by another Methuselah and blood hunt referendums" etc.

As essentially a defensive vote, it's not great. Ventrue HQ is great because it's versatile - use it when you need on your own votes, and not when you don't. Perhaps if there was some minor upside you could use it for yourself, and the defensive votes as an alternative? It doesn't feel terrible or unusable, but just a bit... fringey.

direwolf wrote:

"Advocate"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on another vampire you control of the same clan. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire may move one blood from the blood bank to an uncontrolled vampire of the same clan as a +2 stealth action.

Probably not great. Heartblood of the Clan is similar, and played a little, but not great. While permanent, it's very slow compared to cards that see regular play, like Govern or maybe Grooming, and less versatile than Villein or Blood Doll. And it's 2 actions (and 2 transfers) before you get a single pool out of it.

At this sort of trickle level, I'd look more along the lines of an Ecoterrorists - something that's unique but doesn't take up much by way of continuing resources, in terms of actions lost and that sort of thing. I'm not saying create an Ecoterrorists clone - though you might go that way if you wanted - but the ongoing action requirement from one vampire might be quite steep.

direwolf wrote:

"Steward"
Requires a Primogen. Put this card on a younger Camarilla vampire you control. The acting Primogen has one less vote.
This vampire may equip, employ or recruit as if the acting Primogen meets the requirements. When you employ a retainer or equip you may move the retainer or equipment to the acting Primogen.

Notes: in this instance the Primogen is empowering another vampire to act in her name and reap the benefits of that vampire's actions.

I'm not sure that card text does quite what you want, assuming I understand correctly. Gitane St Clair puts this on Rufina Soledad. Rufina equips a Bastard Sword and can/must give it to Gitane? And Rufina can use Gitane's... clan, disciplines, titles?..., but Rufina pays? The text can be polished, anyhow.

It's an interesting avenue. If I follow what yuo're trying to do, Rufina could recruit a Renegade Garou as if she were Gitane, which is probably fairly niche but interesting - why not just play another weenie of the relevant clan, in most cases? But for most ongoing purposes, allies don't care who employed them, so equipment and retainers are potentially more interesting. Feels like it probably lends itself to a bleedzooka of some sort, though one that might be a little slow to start.

And later in the game, when you're drawing this and already have two copies of it out, you may well be gnashing and wailing quite a bit, wishing it was a copy of Lost in Crowds instead.

Thanks, good points all.

I really should avoid working out my ideas while really tired. Maybe I will revisit this idea after some more thought. Or I'll just stick to making Minecraft skins.