file flesh bag

18 Sep 2016 04:57 - 18 Sep 2016 13:18 #78357 by snegiem
flesh bag was created by snegiem
Flesh bag
cost none
action modifier/reaction card
Obf: when an action is announced, you can play this card as an action modifier on this acting minion you control to equip this minion with a non unique non location non vehicle equipment from your hand which cost less than 3 pools and does no aggravated damages.
thn: equip this acting or reacting minion with a non location non vehicle equipment which costs less than 3 pools.
THN: as above and if this minion enters combat this action, he will can strike: steal a non location non vehicle equipment.

Source: on fact it is the more common use ob the roleplaying game of the hag wrinkles to hide small stuffs usually acquired illegally...

Game use: complementary use of this card to bring non weapons cards in play. (I did not precise but the samedi must fulfill the requirements of the card of equipment, tell me if i shall correct the spelling)... first comes to my mind heart of nietszche but i m sure that other uses can be found as with the radar detector which gives intercept, ir googles ... or even such weapons as bombs or grenades or ivory bow ... i think it could give another view on the samedis as smugglers and superior level was to find another interedt to cards such as dirty contract...
Last edit: 18 Sep 2016 13:18 by snegiem.

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20 Sep 2016 21:08 - 20 Sep 2016 21:11 #78450 by chrisn101
Replied by chrisn101 on topic flesh bag
Power level seems a bit high, but a cross between Hag's Wrinkles and Disguised Weapon . I certainly agree that a more flexible version would help use in decks.

Cold, hard cache*
:obf: :reaction: Only usable when this minion has successfully blocked and if you have a non-unique combat equipment card costing one or fewer pool in your hand: equip this minion with that equipment.
:thn: :combat: Only usable before range is chosen if you have a non-unique combat equipment card costing one or fewer pool in your hand: equip this minion with that equipment.
:THN: :combat: Strike: [Steal / Destroy] weapon with first strike**.

*Sorry, haven't seen a good pun in ages.
** Steal weapon personal preference.
Last edit: 20 Sep 2016 21:11 by chrisn101. Reason: Added links

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23 Sep 2016 13:35 #78518 by snegiem
Replied by snegiem on topic flesh bag
Chris...

This time i really prefer my version : s

To ask for a successful block for the basic obf level seems to be very counter-intuitive... ok it could bring some surprises but not for samedi (who basically have no intercept except for the ones who have necromancy)... so it would be much more interesting to make it an action modifier than a reaction card... and even as this level was voluntary lower powered than disguised weapon/concealed weapon making even decks with obf and intercept (malk, malk!, nos, nos!) Prefering other options (and even samedi as they have obf but no intercept)

For thn, you switched to combat equipment but what is a "combat equipment" ? Are a flak jacket or a ir goggles combat equipment for example ?
For this level, the point is almost the same than for obf, why not use concealed weapon instead (or disguised weapon) as they allow weapons more expansive for example (cause few weapons cost 1 or less: bastard sword, the gun that makes 1r and 1 maneuver,...)
Beside my "innovation" was to allow to equip non weapon equipment during actions... it was maybe too strong for the meta game as it would allow to bring almost out of nowhere equipments but samedi need strong cards don t they ?

THN: i agree as we had almost the same...

i was even wondering recently if one level shall not instead prevent a small equipment to be destroyed or stolen...

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24 Sep 2016 14:06 - 24 Sep 2016 14:07 #78527 by chrisn101
Replied by chrisn101 on topic flesh bag
Hmm, yes, my suggestion was because equipping with a "Non location non vehicle equipment" - presumably as the player would be expecting to be blocked - made me think that "Combat equipment" might be an easier term. Thinking about it though, "combat equipment" could actually include a Hawg , so not the same at all - apologies. But yes, I assumed you were thinking about non-unique items like Kevlar Vest, IR Goggles, Saturday Night Special, Molotov cocktail*.

*If you equip with a Molotov pre-combat, does the 'usable next round' mean your minion can strike with it in the first round of combat?That seems over-powerful.

Samedi intercept is a different issue - I think I've posted quite a few suggestions on this, e.g. the Knowing Stone ritual as a Samedi equipment. Usually I play a lot of Hag's Wrinkles + Sports Bikes with some Spectral Divinations in my decks. Club Zombie is fitting but expensive, but then again it is is quite flexible and I've never seen anyone else play it.

I admit that the idea of being able to equip 'on the way' to doing something would speed up play, but it would enable players to tool up their minion with an Improvised Flamethrower (potentially workable if the Samedi had Elemental Stoicism ), while using a Dirty Contract/Bums Rush seems a little overpowered, especially if the card is about stowing smaller items using Hag's Wrinkles. It also does not allow other players to intercept that equip at all.

There is also the consideration that you can already do the same effect (using the same number of cards) by announcing an equip action and playing Hag's Wrinkles (HW) to untap, then taking an action, so this replicates a pre-existing function. As HW increases the stealth of the equip action - and Samedi can gain additional stealth from OBF, THN, and NEC - there is diminished advantage in a card offering unblockable equip actions. But if there is, it should be either a very expensive card for allowing you to equip with no chance of being blocked, very limiting of the cost of the equipment (free or 1 pool roughly equating to a small item), very limiting as to the equipment type, and/or very specific as to who can use it (e.g. Samedi-only). There's also vertical flexibility: card power levels may be specialist to allow greater effects at doing one particular thing very well ( Disguised Weapon ), or they may be more flexible, doing two different things mediumishly well ( Infection ). Horizontal flexibility is when a card can be played: most of the time the cards are either actions/action modifiers or reaction. There's very few that are both, and that usually costs. Finally, whether it fits established game mechanics/rules (although in this case your phrase did, mine didn't).

Anyway, that's how I normally think about card suggestions and my reasoning for the suggestion in my earlier post. From what you've typed below, perhaps a more focused card might be appropriate? For example:

Action
Samedi only
+1 stealth action
:thn: (d) Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by your predator or prey. This acting minion gets an optional maneuver during this combat.
:THN: As above, but if combat begins you may equip this minion with either armour or a non-unique weapon that does not inflict aggravated damage and costs two or fewer pool from your hand (pay cost to equip as normal) before strikes are determined.

My reasoning for making it Samedi-only is that I've read somewhere that other vampires who learn basic Thanatosis don't have the right 'type' of loose skin to make effective use of HW. Maybe that's in V20?

As to its effect on the meta-game, the best way to find out is talk to your local playgroup about testing out the card idea, then make it on VTES.net , play test it, collect feedback, and refine (further iterative stages are probable).
Last edit: 24 Sep 2016 14:07 by chrisn101.
The following user(s) said Thank You: snegiem

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25 Sep 2016 03:51 #78528 by snegiem
Replied by snegiem on topic flesh bag
In truth, when i was writing non vehicle non location equipment, i was kinda more thinking about "roleplaying" aspect of the card (ex: it seemed weird to me to be able to hide inside someone s body a hawg or a palatial estate behind his ribs for example... but a tapestry of blood seemed me regular to fit)...

For molotov, if i remember the ruling correctly it s not an equipment when not in play so you cannot equip with it except its text : strike: put this card on this minion

i always liked the idea of a club zombi in a samedi deck as very thematic : )
(Despite the huge pool cost : s )

And i agree with you about what you wrote about hag wrinkles... my first version was lacking the flexibility and/or was not adding sufficient power compared to other existing card...

so i like very much your last version... the only thing i was wondering was maybe to add a first basic level of obf or for such as
for: prevent 1 damage to allow mixed crypt to use the card (it does not appear so much powerful as to restrict it to samedi only)

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26 Sep 2016 21:26 - 26 Sep 2016 21:29 #78538 by chrisn101
Replied by chrisn101 on topic flesh bag

the only thing i was wondering was maybe to add a first basic level of obf or for such as for: prevent 1 damage to allow mixed crypt to use the card


Well, using the above example, as it's an action card, the other ability would normally be an action as well, and the overall card 'cost' might go up due to horizontal flexibility, unless it was very specific. It's getting extremely wordy though.

E.g.

Flesh bags
Action
Samedi only
+1 stealth action
:obf: Place this card on this minion. Once per During combat you may burn this card to Strike: steal weapon when the cost of that equipment is two or fewer pool. A minion may only have one copy of Flesh Bags.
:thn: (d) Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by your predator or prey. This acting minion gets an optional maneuver during this combat.
:THN: As above, but if combat begins you may equip this minion with either armour or a non-unique weapon that does not inflict aggravated damage and costs two or fewer pool from your hand (pay cost to equip as normal) before strikes are determined.
Last edit: 26 Sep 2016 21:29 by chrisn101. Reason: Changed wording

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