[Card ban idea] List

First off, the ban list can't be too long, and shouldn't take away totally capabilities of certain clans, disciplines and archetypes. It's meant as equalizer and prime reason to end up here is a lot of entries in TWDA.

Dominate
- Deflection: given how inferior is used often to play just deflection, and how there are multiple other bounce options, this one need to go.
- Govern the Unaligned: it's just way too effective at what it does, and it make dominate best bleed discipline. There is scouting mission already.

Equipment
- .44 Magnum. the weapon is just too card-efficient. It deals damage, it gives maneuver, it doesn't cost much. At this point, i don't see the reason to leave it in the game. No other gun give this much power with minimal setup as this one. There are many other options to consider anyway (shotgun, foldable machinegun, desert eagle) in ~2 pool range. When we say guns are problems, we really mean "the .44 is problem".

Perhaps, there are few more outliners, like Eyes of Argus, Immortal Grapple (and corresponding S:CE like Earth Meld, Majesty), Carrion Crows, but none is as annoying as those three.

IDK how to feel about this.

On the one hand, I would like to see VTES redone and rebooted, etc. etc. Most people here know this. *Looks at Kraus.*

But on the other hand, are these cards really ban worthy? I think the problem isn't with these cards in particular, but with the power-level they represent and how the game/cards have been powered down since these were first printed.

Which IMO is a reason the game itself tends to be 2 hours. If the power-level of cards/effects were increased, then the game would probably speed up. Of course, that means obsoleting / wall-papering so many cards. But it also potentially means cool new effects and designs and I think VEKN/Black Chantry is demonstrating this. The recent Lost Kindred set, which was deliberately designed to power-up the Harbingers, Gargoyles, Samedi, etc. The greatest equalizer would be a reboot, but barring that, I'd rather see stronger cards printed to raise the power-level of weak disciplines (as opposed to banning good cards.)

IMO, I think 3 is the most pool damage that should be done in a singe action in most cases. I also think pool gain is too high. If we were to balance pool damage and pool gain I think the game would be in a lot better place.

But, piggy-backing on the topic, here are some cards that I would ban/errata if I had the ability.

Parity Shift
Banishment
Deflection
Conditioning
Foreshadowing Destuction
Open ended pool/blood gain (Consanguineous Boon, Taste of vitae, Giant's Blood, Voter Cap, etc.)
Pentex Subversion
Immortal Grapple/Combat Ends (One begets the other, and neither allow for fun counter play. THINK ABOUT THE MELEE WEAPONS.)
Ashur Tablets
Brainwash and similar effects


That's all I can think off the top of my head. I would remove "big impact" pool damage and pool gain, ban cards that limit what happens in combat, ban cards that don't allow for interactivity.

LivesByProxy wrote:

IDK how to feel about this.The greatest equalizer would be a reboot, but barring that, I'd rather see stronger cards printed to raise the power-level of weak disciplines (as opposed to banning good cards.)

There are a lot of disciplines that need a boost. I totally agree that Black Chantry has done a great job of reinforcing weak clans/disciplines. The print and play sets all have cards that are worth playing over other existing options.

There is definitely balance that is needed for a lot of the strategies. There's a lot of "win conditions" I can think of that are completely unexplored.

Ban .44's? Y'all crazy. Get back to me when the Outside The Hourglass and Domain of Evernight ridiculousness is dealt with first

It's OK to have good cards.

Lech wrote:

First off, the ban list can't be too long, and shouldn't take away totally capabilities of certain clans, disciplines and archetypes. It's meant as equalizer and prime reason to end up here is a lot of entries in TWDA.

Dominate
- Deflection: given how inferior is used often to play just deflection, and how there are multiple other bounce options, this one need to go.

So now every deck will include Telepathic Misdirection. Not sure how this is "equalizes" anything. Now, lets take this a step further and propose banning all bounce. In this case, bleed reduction and pool gain will proliferate. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

- Govern the Unaligned: it's just way too effective at what it does, and it make dominate best bleed discipline. There is scouting mission already.

Govern allows big caps to be effective. Get rid of Govern, and small cap decks will proliferate; crappy combat decks and weenie bleed decks will be enabled and big cap decks (and by extension, vote decks [big caps = titles]) will be crippled.

The game has been built around Govern since day one. Banning it will create more issues than it will solve.

Equipment
- .44 Magnum. the weapon is just too card-efficient. It deals damage, it gives maneuver, it doesn't cost much.

What? It costs 2 pool. That is a lot. The problem here is not that .44 is too good, it's that small caps are too good. .44 magnum is only a great card in the context of a small cap celerity gun deck. In other decks, it's not nearly as good. That tells me the problem is small caps, not .44 itself.

At this point, i don't see the reason to leave it in the game. No other gun give this much power with minimal setup as this one. There are many other options to consider anyway (shotgun, foldable machinegun, desert eagle) in ~2 pool range. When we say guns are problems, we really mean "the .44 is problem".

Again, I'd argue when we say guns are a problem, we mean small caps are a problem. Or celerity gun decks are a problem.

DJHedgehog wrote:

Immortal Grapple/Combat Ends (One begets the other, and neither allow for fun counter play. THINK ABOUT THE MELEE WEAPONS.)

What exactly does this solve? Instead of Immortal Grapple countering Strike: combat ends, we will now have strike: dodge countering melee weapon strike. How is this "fun counter play"? Isn't it exactly the same concept?