[Submission] Celerity fixes

Lech wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Check www.vekn.fr/decks/twd.htm. there are at least 15 decks in the TWD with them.

12, 7 of which use 4 or less of those.

4 or so is a fair amount to use a single card. I don't understand this as a counter argument.

Hide the Mind wouldn't be played often in more than 2 or so copies and it wins games.

Those cards are on completely different scales, I know, but if there's 2+ of a single card in any given deck, it counts as using the card.

Anyways, It's a support card.

Also, niche is niche, but if it fills that niche, it's playable. Soul Decoration can be used virtually by two (arguably one, Mistress Fanchion) vampires in the game, so it's super niche, but super powerful within that niche. I don't agree about 'niche' closing in on 'wallpaper'. They are completely different.

Kraus wrote:

Lech wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Check www.vekn.fr/decks/twd.htm. there are at least 15 decks in the TWD with them.

12, 7 of which use 4 or less of those.

4 or so is a fair amount to use a single card. I don't understand this as a counter argument.

Hide the Mind wouldn't be played often in more than 2 or so copies and it wins games.

Those cards are on completely different scales, I know, but if there's 2+ of a single card in any given deck, it counts as using the card.

Anyways, It's a support card.

Also, niche is niche, but if it fills that niche, it's playable. Soul Decoration can be used virtually by two (arguably one, Mistress Fanchion) vampires in the game, so it's super niche, but super powerful within that niche. I don't agree about 'niche' closing in on 'wallpaper'. They are completely different.

I refuse to concede that Unmada isn't the greatest Malkavian justicar in print, and furthermore insist only a lack supporting princes keep him from glory.

Stutter step.is incredibly niche though, since it doesn't get under grapple, is often a delivery method for agg hands and above all is a celerity card that doesn't jive well with guns builds. I may be biased, but when Projectile is a viable trump to anything requiring I typically change that card to pursuit, psyche!, blur, or sideslip.
I have gone to torpor to stutterstep when my wife was running a Nizzam deck, but that's life I guess.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I would argue that is weak/without standalone benefit but is fine.

Inferior isn't good. let's you grapple without a press, and disarm among other things. is the only thing that makes some vamps playable, due to its adding multiact and surviving combat.
provides the ever present threat of agg poke, and protean kinda sucks. These cards do not hit the uselessness of inferior celerity, or touch on the applications of celerity from the source material, but I'm certain there is a game need for something that does these things.
You also spelled celerity without the "r" in title .
I have faith in some of your ideas, these aren't quite where they could be, and I would be doing you a disservice to say otherwise.

Am I alone in thinking that potence is kinda like the worst combat discipline in the game? The reason is that it has almost zero versatility, no protection from aggro, loses to basically every other combat module out there, and is mainly useful for beating vampires who have no combat and are the combat equivalent of water balloons. And still needs lots of cards to do even that. I will pick celerity over potence any day of the week. At least celerity will dodge your whatever and counter combat ends even at range with psyche.

Protean sucks? Flesh of marble + claws of the dead. You have what potence cards? Do I care? No.

The only way potence is good is when its coupled with fortitude, and even then fortitude alone is better, as evidenced by your friendly neighborhood ventrue antitribu.

Am I alone in thinking that potence is kinda like the worst combat discipline in the game?

In this, sir, you are not alone.

It is definitely not worthless, but in a grand scheme of things people do overestimate it.

But how to make Potence better?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think part of the problem is with the Discipline name. It would be better if the Discipline were called Ferocity. Potence is being physically strong and hitting hard. Ferocity is exhibiting or behaving with extreme fierceness, and unrestrained violence and brutality. One of these is for super hero shenanigans, the other is for vampires fighting to the death. I think the word Potence limits conception of what the discipline could / should do, but Ferocity has a larger range of applicability. And a lot of Potence cards names are better suited to Ferocity as a name as well. There are also a couple of cards which could / should be Potence cards, but are not for [reasons]. Notorious Brutality, Uncontrollable Rage, and Taste of Vitae come to mind.

Seeing Red
Combat
Frenzy. This vampire gets +1 strength for the remainder of combat. Strikes to end combat have no effect, and this vampire gets an optional press, only usable to continue combat.
As above, but non-damaging strikes have no effect.

Tooth & Nail
Combat
Frenzy. This vampire may use presses to play strike cards during the Press step for the remainder of combat.
As above, and this vampire gets an optional press this round.

I feel there are multiple threads in this conversation so I'm going to address some of them in different statements.

1) Combat is one of the least efficient paths to victory, as a result cards that enable combat decks are less common in twda.

2) Celerity is very efficient at combat, but rarely used outside of combat thus has an incorrect perception of being weak.

3) Potence is very inefficient at combat and primarily usage of the discipline only supports a combat victory condition.

Possible Solutions:

1) Create a usage of Potence and Celerity that supports a path to victory outside of combat. (Working on that)

2) Make Potence better at supporting combat so that it isn't outclassed by Target: Vitals and Walking Sticks, neither of which require a discipline. Thus when combat is better supported, Potence will be better represented.