file Debacle: control tools for Toreador

28 Aug 2022 07:26 - 28 Aug 2022 07:27 #106170 by Joscha
Honestly, you can not really think, this is a balanced card (though I really like its name).
You want to give a minion the power of Banishment, a huge card, with minor drawbacks (only vs. titled vamps and minor blood cost) to a clan, that has means to
a) make the action unblockable via Toreador Grandball
b) play votepush in various ways (Bewitching Oration, Awe, Scalpel Tongue, Telepathic Vote Counting, Perfect Paragon)
c) can probably cancel a Delaying Tactics with Approximation of Loyalty
d) field many titled minions (and if not, you want to give them +votes on the card)
e) make much out of the banished, er debacled demis of a big voter like an IC in playing some damaging votes after that or bleed like hell with presence.

That card would be too strong even for some clan like Nagaraja, but that at least would not get that much out of it.

Debacle has to target only younger vamps (maybe plus Allies?) to be in line, then w/o cost and if you like with add votes for untitled Toreador. Or make it at least Justicar/IC only.

Rune's comparision with a pro rush is not applicable IMHO, as you can block a rush most often w/o intercept needed, can play Combat cards or even Obedience and Mental Maze, the Minion is then still in game, can be rescued from Torpor and what not. It is not simply gone and has to be reinfluenced.

YMMV of course, but I think the above mentioned reasons against such a card are most significant.

Baron of Frankfurt
Last edit: 28 Aug 2022 07:27 by Joscha. Reason: Added missing word

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29 Aug 2022 10:00 - 29 Aug 2022 10:03 #106181 by Kiddo

So, a 2-cap can banish an Inner Circle. And he (and potentially more vamps) get an additional vote to do so.

Seems balanced ;)

Less lip and more consideration from you, and you'll see it's actually easier to pull off a rush + aggro + dip from a :pro: 2-cap than getting a vote like this off. ;)


Not in my experience, it isn't. Starting from the ammount of cards you need to pull an aggro poke (at least rush+aggro strike). Then there is the fact that it can be blocked much more easily, since it isn't stealthed. Also, there is also a fact that the target vamp has a say in that combat, be it prevent, dodge, S:CE, obedience, whatever. And also, there is a fact that it is much easier, cheaper and faster to get yourself out from torpor than getting back in the game from uncontrolled.

So yeah, that might be just my lip saying stuff. But no way in hell this seems even remotely balanced to me. Getting a 2-cap with 2 blood in a vote deck is easy, depending on your build. And depending on your votes (which you will have if you have politial cards in your deck), this might easily be a one card action where a 2-cap banishes an Inner Circle.

EDIT :now i saw that everything I was trying to say, Joscha said before me and more eloquently.
Last edit: 29 Aug 2022 10:03 by Kiddo.

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