Blitz Round of Playtest Drawing to a Close

Surreal wrote:

Nobody hates you. It is always cool to see fan sets, like Mage and Kuei-jin.

Yeah, those two were really awesome. I appreciated the work they put into those sets.
I'm trying to sell my playgroup the KotE expansion, but they are a bit "traditionalistic".

echiang wrote:

Some people believe that all power should be consolidated under VEKN and nothing VTES-related should be allowed without their blessing.

Do you believe anything "official" regarding VTES should be taking place without the approval of the VEKN?

IOW: Do you regard your cards as anything greater than a fan set?

echiang wrote:

Thank you for the post Lemminkäinen.

Thank you for taking the time to write up a thoughtful reply

First off, I fail to see why releasing a separate set has to be "competing" with the VEKN's set. Why can't they both succeed?

A good question.

I, personally, feel that having a sense of unity in the community and a sense of officiliaty is important. The VEKN set will, as far as I have understood, become an official part of the game in that it will be tournament legal.

Your set might be legal in some tournaments and illegal in others. If it succeeds, it would, in essence, create a second constructed format with a different meta and different strategies available. Unless it succeeds in such a spectacular way that every tournament will adopt it but I'm somewhat pessimistic about that happening. At worst it might end up dividing the player base and to a "dead" game that can be actually fatal.

The second problem is that if you come up with awesome cards (as I'm sure you will), I will be saddened to not see them used in (many) official tournaments. If you, for example, make the Samedi a great clan that has the potential to challenge to best archetypes, I would love playing that. But I'm afraid that even if you do, not all tournaments will allow your awesome Samedi cards.

A question: is your goal to get your set official status in all (or almost all) VTES tournaments?

Secondly, I am always interested in having reasoned discussions. In fact, we have repeatedly tried to keep the door open for discussions with VEKN, it's just that they seem to have very little interest in talking to us.

It may not have been your intent (the internet is an imperfect means of communication), but your post could be interpreted as being provocative by claiming that our actions are not based on reason at all. That may explain Jeff's reaction.

Ouch. I can see how you can very easily read it that way. I honestly meant it as "reasoned" from the point of view of other posters. I mean, I do disagree with the choice of releasing a "competing" set but you have been polite and reasoned in your responses on the forums from what I have seen. Most of the opposition has been as well, mind you, but there have been some flare ups and I honestly meant the "reasoned" as in "would you be willing to discuss this if no one called you a butt and everyone behaved themselves."

In the previous thread you went a bit silent after a while and I kinda thought that the reason for this might've been the tone of some of the posts in the thread. Which was a shame as I felt that many people had good points that I would've loved for you to engage. Mind you, the thread did get rather heavily sidetracked as well.

I realize that many people disagree with our actions. Some people now hate us for it. Some people believe that the only possible motivations we might have is ego or trying to destroy the game. Some people believe that all power should be consolidated under VEKN and nothing VTES-related should be allowed without their blessing.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but opinions do not turn things into fact or necessarily make things wrong or right (and that applies equally to everyone, including us). I think there is a large chunk of people who will think the worst of us and nothing we do or say is likely to change their minds.

I certainly don't hate you. I respect you, but I'm a bit baffled by your plan.

I do understand your dissatisfaction with VEKN, mind. That part I'm not interested in, really. It's between people, no one outside of a very small set of people has all the details and I'm very sure that there are two sides to the story (as we have heard) and that finding out who was in the wrong is not fruitful. It's very unfortunate that it did happen, but hashing things out in the forums won't "solve" it nor produce anything of worth at this stage.

What I'm interested in discussing, is your set, whether releasing it is a good idea and whether there is something that could make it a good idea.

If by "reasoned discussion" you mean: you show us the light and the error of our ways and how we are totally acting irrationally, without reason, and how VEKN is totally in the right and how we are totally in the wrong. Then I think it is doubtful (though not impossible) for such a discussion to be very productive.

If by "reasoned discussion" you mean: focusing on understanding the other viewpoint (as opposed to trying to convince the other party how he/she is wrong) and perhaps even brainstorming for alternative solutions, then I think there is a lot more potential for something positive to come out of it.

For me this has been a bit of a strange trip in that you are obviously intelligent, experienced, and mature people who love the game. And the people on the other side are also (for the most part ) intelligent, experienced, and mature people who love the game. And yet, a very big polarity has appeared.

So yeah, I would be interested in a reasoned discussion (without flames or snark from either side, if possible) where you would explain your views and your opponents would explain theirs.

I have met and played with both Jeff and Eric, and had plenty of exposure to, and discourse with, them on the forums. I have no doubt that any set they produce will not fall short of excellent, and I would be surprised if the "official" set is as good or better.

Putting it out there for people to use has little downside. Worst case scenario, folks have fun with them in casual play and unofficial tournaments. Best case scenario, the player base loves it to the point that they pressure the VEKN hard enough to force it to "official" status.

BTW Jeff & Eric, I could probably find time to help with some artwork if needed. My resume is "Toy" the Samedi and... well that's it.

Hello!

I just wanted to drop by to say that you two (Lemminkäinen and Echiang) have definitely the right approach to this. I'd wish all discussion here started off with the foot you started with.

Well done!

-Kraus