Ranking List & EC Legendary Vampire Tournament

Izaak wrote:

if we still want to name this tournament Legendary Vampire and not some random tournament.

How on earth is a tournament with only competitors that have won a tournament in the past ~20 months a "random" tournament.
.........

I totally agree with you.
I have presented several ways we can use to choose TOP 25 on Polish VTES Forum but TWDA is the only solution with at least piece of objectivity in it . We can also invite players that we believe to be the best at the moment, but it's impossible for us in Poland to say anything about people playing in ex. in Portugal, as I have never been there and played a game or two with them in my whole life...

How on earth is a tournament with only competitors that have won a tournament in the past ~20 months a "random" tournament.

The reason is that in TWDA we have winners from 8-person tournament played among group of people playing only with themselves and EC winners as well. Proposed ranking treats them almost equally. That's why I think we should at least take last available data from vekn ranking

If you aren't winning tournaments, you probably aren't the best.

If you're not winning you won't be in list proposed by me as well.
If you won few tournaments playing only with a bunch of friends you probably aren't best as well and a big part od TWDA are such tournaments.

Ranking based solely on TWDA should at least take into account type of tournament (NC, EC, ECQ, normal) and be more dependent on size of tournament (log15 causes situation that differences between 100 person tournament and 8 person tournament are too little)

The reason is that in TWDA we have winners from 8-person tournament played among group of people playing only with themselves

It's 10 players minimum.

Proposed ranking treats them almost equally. That's why I think we should at least take last available data from vekn ranking

Any VEKN ranking we could scrape together with Archons from the past year would give the exact same "problem". Guess what - people that play lots of tournaments get lots of ranking points no matter what ranking system you use.

If you won few tournaments playing only with a bunch of friends you probably aren't best as well and a big part od TWDA are such tournaments.

If you don't play only with a bunch of friends and attend 1-2 big tournaments a year and you randomly get a GW and some VP, you probably aren't the best as well. Your point?

Also, your argument doesn't really hold true here; people that only play local tournaments are unlikely to travel to the EC in the first place, making the whole issue, if there is any, moot.

Ranking based solely on TWDA should at least take into account type of tournament (NC, EC, ECQ, normal) and be more dependent on size of tournament (log15 causes situation that differences between 100 person tournament and 8 person tournament are too little

It should be noted that the difference between a 25-player tournament and a 200-men tournament is actually surprisingly insignificant because you'll never play against more than 16 different decks in both situations. Even final cut-offs tend to be similar because of the "group of 25" system that plagues huge tournaments. I'd even argue that making the finals of a 100-player tournaments requires as much skill at making the finals of a 25-men one, except that the 100-men finals require a LOT more luck.

It's 10 players minimum.

Point taken

Any VEKN ranking we could scrape together with Archons from the past year would give the exact same "problem". Guess what - people that play lots of tournaments get lots of ranking points no matter what ranking system you use.

It's good, if you play a lot there is a chance you're good and well known player (aka legendary). I would just like to treat wins in Friday Night Magic type of tournament (Mtg players should know) as significantly less important than f.e National Championships.

If you don't play only with a bunch of friends and attend 1-2 big tournaments a year and you randomly get a GW and some VP, you probably aren't the best as well. Your point?

scoring 1 GW in some big tournament is not enough to have a lot of points in VEKN ranking

Also, your argument doesn't really hold true here; people that only play local tournaments are unlikely to travel to the EC in the first place, making the whole issue, if there is any, moot.

that's only a supposition. As well they can decide that EC is a kind of tournament worth visiting, especially if they will be invited to play in famous Legendary Vampire tournament.

It should be noted that the difference between a 25-player tournament and a 200-men tournament is actually surprisingly insignificant because you'll never play against more than 16 different decks in both situations. Even final cut-offs tend to be similar because of the "group of 25" system that plagues huge tournaments. I'd even argue that making the finals of a 100-player tournaments requires as much skill at making the finals of a 25-men one, except that the 100-men finals require a LOT more luck.

Luck is always some kind of factor in card games. Difference between small and big tournaments is that in small ones it's often enough to score 1GW (or not even that) in 3 rounds to get to the final, which can be pure luck, while in big tournament it's often that you have to get something like 2GW 10VP (or even 3GW) to be qualified for final game, which requires more skill or a lot more of luck

especially if they will be invited to play in famous Legendary Vampire tournament.

I think you are still entirely missing the point of the Legendary Vampire tournament.

OK guys. Here's the update.

We have discussed it yesterday on Polish VTES forum and decided to agree that not only number of TWDA appereances is important but also type and size of the tournament you won.

I would like to present two lists.
First one is a list of all records taken from TWDA - I would like to ask NCs and Princes to update me via email () or here with NC and ECQ winners that are missing.
PLease provide me with Date, tournament type (NC,ECQ), winner and attendance
Now it's up to you dear NCs and Princes if someone will be invited to the LV tournament or not !!

We will close the list on 30th of September.

Second list is the updated rank. I have used following formula to count points for each tournament won :
Ranking points = X*log₅(Attendance), where :
X - tournament type modifier (Continental -5, NC - 3,ECQ - 2, rest - 1)
Attendance - number of players

zyou will find the rank at the beggining of this thread on page 1

List of all tournaments from TWDA :
Please check if anyone is missing !!!

Player Attendance Tournament Type Modifier Ranking points
Adam Esbjörnsson 14 1 1,639738513
Adam Esbjörnsson 11 1 1,489896102
Adam Esbjörnsson 15 ECQ 2 3,365212389
Ádám Horváth 55 ECQ 2 4,979792205
Adam Hulse 17 1 1,760374428
Akseli Jalava 19 1 1,8294828
Alejandro Rodriguez 25 1 2
Alejandro Rodriguez 15 1 1,682606194
Aleksander Idziak 16 1 1,722706232
Aleksi Nuora 19 1 1,8294828
Alessandro Donati 42 ECQ 2 4,644689415
Alessandro Donati 29 1 2,092218534
Alessandro Donati 10 1 1,430676558
Alessandro Donati 35 1 2,209061955
Alessandro Giogoli 25 1 2
Alex Ek 13 1 1,593692641
Alex Minov 22 1 1,92057266
Alex Minov 11 1 1,489896102
Alexander Loginov 16 1 1,722706232
Alfred Behrends 27 ECQ 2 4,095637167
Anderson Garcia 38 1 2,260159359
André Catarino 12 1 1,543959311
Andrzej Wilczynski 10 1 1,430676558
Anthony Coleman 34 NC 3 6,573152957
Antoine Franqueville-Roy 10 1 1,430676558
Antoine Franqueville-Roy 16 1 1,722706232
Anton Dudko 20 NC 3 5,584059348
Antonio Cobo Cuenca 21 1 1,89166815
Antti Tirilä 16 1 1,722706232
Arkadiusz Modzelewski 10 1 1,430676558
Arkadiusz Modzelewski 12 1 1,543959311
Armen Khachikyan 15 1 1,682606194
Axel Kleinschmidt 22 1 1,92057266
Bartosz Wroblewski 10 1 1,430676558
Bartosz Wroblewski 10 1 1,430676558
Bartosz Wroblewski 10 1 1,430676558
Ben Peal 27 ECQ 2 4,095637167
Ben Peal 10 1 1,430676558
Benoît Moyen 34 1 2,191050986
Bill Troxel 47 Continental 5 11,96115604
Bill Troxel 10 1 1,430676558
Brad Cashdollar 16 1 1,722706232
Brad Cashdollar 26 1 2,024369199
Brad Cashdollar 12 1 1,543959311
Brian Moritz 55 1 2,489896102
Brian Moritz 40 1 2,292029674
Burt Sheldon 12 1 1,543959311
Cameron Domer 28 1 2,070415071
Cameron Goudie 16 1 1,722706232
Cameron Goudie 12 1 1,543959311
Cameron Goudie 13 1 1,593692641
Carlos Martín Guerra 13 1 1,593692641
Carlos Tomás Arán 31 1 2,133656215
Caroline Hyll 15 1 1,682606194
Caroline Hyll 16 1 1,722706232
Cesar Ruiperez 30 NC 3 6,339848258
Chrisitano Santos 16 1 1,722706232
Christian Chénard 16 1 1,722706232
Christian Nislev 10 1 1,430676558
Cory Busch Kendall 42 1 2,322344708
Craig Love 10 1 1,430676558
Csaba Greguss 24 1 1,974635869
Daniel Abreu 17 1 1,760374428
Daniel Boud 15 NC 3 5,047818583
Daniel Boud 15 1 1,682606194
Daniel Mota 20 1 1,861353116
Daniel Padrol 15 1 1,682606194
Danilo Fernandes 22 1 1,92057266
Danilo Torrisi 20 1 1,861353116
Danilo Torrisi 20 1 1,861353116
Danilo Torrisi 35 1 2,209061955
Darby Keeney 10 1 1,430676558
Darby Keeney 20 1 1,861353116
Darby Keeney 10 1 1,430676558
Darby Keeney 15 1 1,682606194
Darby Keeney 12 1 1,543959311
Dave Baker 24 1 1,974635869
Dave Baker 12 1 1,543959311
Dave Baker 12 1 1,543959311
Dave Knowles 13 1 1,593692641
Dave Lees 12 1 1,543959311
Dave Pennington 10 1 1,430676558
David Litwin 18 1 1,795888947
David Litwin 23 1 1,948192093
David Lusven 17 1 1,760374428
David Martín Berbel 32 1 2,15338279
David Tatu 23 1 1,948192093
David Wilson 27 1 2,047818583
David Wilson 24 1 1,974635869
Denes Kocis 12 1 1,543959311
Denes Kocis 10 1 1,430676558
Denes Kocis 17 1 1,760374428
Djordje Bjelajac 12 1 1,543959311
Dmitriy Konstantinov 10 1 1,430676558
Dominik Piatkowski 28 1 2,070415071
Eduardo Mateus 13 1 1,593692641
Edward McGlynn 18 1 1,795888947
Eliseu Ângelo 13 NC 3 4,781077924
Emiliano Arnotti 10 1 1,430676558
Emiliano Imeroni 28 NC 3 6,211245214
Eric Haas 17 1 1,760374428
Erik Torstensson 37 ECQ 2 4,48717889
Erik Torstensson 13 1 1,593692641
Erik Torstensson 155 Continental 5 15,66828107
Erik Torstensson 25 Continental 5 10
Erik Torstensson 44 NC 3 7,053747656
Erik Torstensson 14 1 1,639738513
Erik Torstensson 37 ECQ 2 4,48717889
Erol Öngün 17 1 1,760374428
Felipe Fiuza 40 Continental 5 11,46014837
Felipe Fiuza 10 1 1,430676558
Fernanda Nunes 26 NC 3 6,073107598
Flavio Valente 19 1 1,8294828
Francesco D 43 1 2,336965028
Frédéric Dorat 13 1 1,593692641
Gabriel Ron 30 1 2,113282753
Genís Prats 62 ECQ 2 5,128665546
Gerold Preinfalk 16 1 1,722706232
Gilmar Mendes 15 1 1,682606194
Giovanni Ambrosio 27 1 2,047818583
Gonzalo García 16 1 1,722706232
Grayson Nootenboom 17 1 1,760374428
Greg Galyanov 13 1 1,593692641
Greguss Csaba 24 1 1,974635869
Greguss Csaba 172 Continental 5 15,99159072
Guido Canciani 51 1 2,442980622
Guilherme Machado 12 1 1,543959311
Gyula Erdos 25 1 2
Gyula Erdos 30 1 2,113282753
Heikki Palomäki 18 1 1,795888947
Heikki Palomäki 16 1 1,722706232
Heikki Palomäki 15 1 1,682606194
Henrik Klippström 10 1 1,430676558
Hernán Rodríguez 13 1 1,593692641
Hugh Angseesing 43 1 2,336965028
Hugh Angseesing 23 ECQ 2 3,896384187
Hugh Angseesing 14 1 1,639738513
Hugh Angseesing 28 1 2,070415071
Hugh Angseesing 24 1 1,974635869
Hugh Angseesing 17 1 1,760374428
Hugh Angseesing 17 1 1,760374428
Hugh Angseesing 14 1 1,639738513
Hugo Dey 12 1 1,543959311
Igor Pereira 18 ECQ 2 3,591777894
Isak Bjärmark Esbjörnsson 12 1 1,543959311
Isak Bjärmark Esbjörnsson 11 1 1,489896102
Ivan Chebunin 17 1 1,760374428
Ivan Marin-Rivas 16 1 1,722706232
Ivor Blockley 15 1 1,682606194
Ivor Blockley 20 1 1,861353116
Ivor Blockley 14 NC 3 4,91921554
Ivor Blockley 10 1 1,430676558
Izaak Havelaar 18 1 1,795888947
Izaak Havelaar 26 ECQ 2 4,048738398
Izaak Havelaar 31 ECQ 2 4,26731243
Izaak Havelaar 20 1 1,861353116
Jakub Baranski 12 1 1,543959311
Jakub Baranski 16 1 1,722706232
Jakub Rypar 24 1 1,974635869
Jakub Serafin 21 ECQ 2 3,783336299
James Messer 23 1 1,948192093
James Wilhelm 10 1 1,430676558
James Wilhelm 13 1 1,593692641
Jan Kroeze 15 1 1,682606194
Jason Ryan 19 1 1,8294828
Jason Ryan 19 1 1,8294828
Jason Ryan 16 Continental 5 8,613531161
Jay Kristoff 11 1 1,489896102
Jay Kristoff 10 1 1,430676558
Jay Kristoff 38 NC 3 6,780478076
Jay Kristoff 13 1 1,593692641
Jeff Poole 12 1 1,543959311
Jeffrey Brandon 12 1 1,543959311
Jeffrey Thompson 10 1 1,430676558
Jelmer Wedholm 13 1 1,593692641
Jerome Bauzon 10 1 1,430676558
Jerome Goyet 149 Continental 5 15,54563325
Jerôme Schwartz 15 ECQ 2 3,365212389
Jesse Cross-Nickerson 13 1 1,593692641
Joao Augusto Sarcinelli 14 1 1,639738513
Joel Marbella 14 1 1,639738513
Johannes Walch 10 1 1,430676558
John Bell 16 1 1,722706232
John Bell 19 1 1,8294828
John Bell 22 1 1,92057266
John Bell 18 1 1,795888947
John Bell 22 1 1,92057266
John Bell 17 1 1,760374428
John Bell 10 ECQ 2 2,861353116
John Bell 21 1 1,89166815
John Bell 17 1 1,760374428
John Bell 10 1 1,430676558
John Bell 15 1 1,682606194
John Bell 15 1 1,682606194
John Bell 18 1 1,795888947
John Best 29 1 2,092218534
John Eno 35 1 2,209061955
John Eno 20 1 1,861353116
John McGlynn 13 1 1,593692641
Jon Glas 12 1 1,543959311
Jon Sushinsky 12 1 1,543959311
Jonatan Sjöberg 12 1 1,543959311
Jonathan Sanchez Rios 37 1 2,243589445
Jordi Tomás 39 1 2,276298836
Jordi Tomás 41 1 2,307372057
Jörg Alten 16 1 1,722706232
Juri Juskevits 43 NC 3 7,010895083
Kari Mäkinen 22 1 1,92057266
Karl Cheng Chua 16 1 1,722706232
Kelly Schultz 12 1 1,543959311
Kevin Mullen 14 1 1,639738513
Kirill Samoilov 21 1 1,89166815
Konstantin Prischepa 12 ECQ 2 3,087918621
Krzysztof Szwed 15 1 1,682606194
Lauri Salmi 17 1 1,760374428
Leonardo Bensi 26 1 2,024369199
Leslie Tatel 14 1 1,639738513
Lubomir Danda 20 ECQ 2 3,722706232
Luciano Villela 12 1 1,543959311
Lukasz Modzelewski 10 1 1,430676558
Lukasz Wasylow 15 1 1,682606194
Maile Walker 10 1 1,430676558
Manuel Diehm 21 1 1,89166815
Marc Lussier 20 1 1,861353116
Marc Pitterman 12 1 1,543959311
Marc Pitterman 13 1 1,593692641
Marcin Ruminski 19 1 1,8294828
Marcin Szybkowski 21 1 1,89166815
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 14 1 1,639738513
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 27 1 2,047818583
Marcin Watras 32 1 2,15338279
Marcin Watras 10 1 1,430676558
Marcin Watras 14 1 1,639738513
Marius Iscru 37 ECQ 2 4,48717889
Mariusz Suchanecki 15 1 1,682606194
Mark Loughman 12 1 1,543959311
Mark Loughman 34 1 2,191050986
Mark Loughman 10 1 1,430676558
Mark Loughman 18 1 1,795888947
Mark Loughman 28 1 2,070415071
Mark Loughman 20 1 1,861353116
Marko Saari 18 1 1,795888947
Martin Collins 12 1 1,543959311
Martin Major 38 1 2,260159359
Martin Major 13 1 1,593692641
Martin Major 17 1 1,760374428
Martin Randers 13 1 1,593692641
Martin Schumacher 12 1 1,543959311
Matias Frosterus 15 1 1,682606194
Matt Guinn 10 1 1,430676558
Matt Guinn 10 1 1,430676558
Matt Hirsch 25 Continental 5 10
Matt Morgan 25 Continental 5 10
Matt Morgan 42 1 2,322344708
Matt Wedge 14 1 1,639738513
Matthew Strehlow 28 1 2,070415071
Mattias Kallenberg 12 1 1,543959311
Medhi Mazni 16 1 1,722706232
Mehdi Mazni 10 1 1,430676558
Michael Courtois 12 1 1,543959311
Michael Courtois 13 1 1,593692641
Michael Leonard 10 1 1,430676558
Michal Dlouhy 13 1 1,593692641
Michal Kazmierczak 15 1 1,682606194
Michal Orowiecki 21 1 1,89166815
Michal Twarowski 13 1 1,593692641
Michel Briand 22 1 1,92057266
Mike Courtois 10 1 1,430676558
Mike Zajac 14 1 1,639738513
Miklós Szilvester 14 1 1,639738513
Milos Krstic 24 1 1,974635869
Moisés Ferrer 12 1 1,543959311
Morgan Delavalle 13 1 1,593692641
Neil Muller 12 1 1,543959311
Nick Miller 15 1 1,682606194
Nikolaj Wendt 15 1 1,682606194
Noel Giménez Infante 22 1 1,92057266
Norbert Bróda 14 1 1,639738513
Norbert Flasko 25 ECQ 2 4
Oriol Pubill 29 1 2,092218534
Oscar Garza 15 1 1,682606194
Oskar Muntzing 14 1 1,639738513
Otso Saariluoma 90 ECQ 2 5,591777894
Otso Saariluoma 11 1 1,489896102
Otso Saariluoma 93 ECQ 2 5,632524819
Otso Saariluoma 15 1 1,682606194
Otso Saariluoma 20 1 1,861353116
Otso Saariluoma 18 1 1,795888947
Pascal Bertrand 23 1 1,948192093
Patrick Benoit 10 1 1,430676558
Patrick Robinsson 21 ECQ 2 3,783336299
Patrizio Zippone 41 1 2,307372057
Paul Wiggers 20 ECQ 2 3,722706232
Pawel Kosz 34 ECQ 2 4,382101972
Pawel Kukielczynski 29 1 2,092218534
Pere Garcia 37 1 2,243589445
Peter Bakija 12 1 1,543959311
Peter Botos 16 1 1,722706232
Peter Botos 40 1 2,292029674
Peter Bouwman 30 NC 3 6,339848258
Peter Bouwman 23 1 1,948192093
Péter Korsós 21 1 1,89166815
Philippe LANG 21 1 1,89166815
Pierre Tran-Van 17 1 1,760374428
Radoslaw Flasinski 23 1 1,948192093
Ralf Lammert 12 1 1,543959311
Ralf Lammert 10 1 1,430676558
Ralf Lammert 16 1 1,722706232
Ralf Lammert 14 1 1,639738513
Ralf Weppner 10 1 1,430676558
Randal Rudstam 24 1 1,974635869
Randal Rudstam 27 1 2,047818583
Reyda Seddiki 10 1 1,430676558
Reyda Seddiki 20 1 1,861353116
Riccardo Fabiani 35 1 2,209061955
Richard Auckland 10 1 1,430676558
Robert Dudock 17 1 1,760374428
Robert Goudie 15 1 1,682606194
Robert Scythe 20 1 1,861353116
Robert Scythe 14 1 1,639738513
Robert Scythe 14 1 1,639738513
Robert Scythe 10 1 1,430676558
Robert Scythe 10 1 1,430676558
Robert Scythe 14 1 1,639738513
Robert Scythe 15 1 1,682606194
Roberto Venturi 32 1 2,15338279
Roberto Venturi 19 1 1,8294828
Robin Pong 12 1 1,543959311
Robyn Tatu 10 1 1,430676558
Rodd Closson 18 1 1,795888947
Rodd Closson 13 1 1,593692641
Rodd Closson 15 1 1,682606194
Rodd Closson 19 1 1,8294828
Rodolphe Danac 23 1 1,948192093
Roger Carhult 12 1 1,543959311
Ruben Feldman 28 1 2,070415071
Ruben Feldman 10 1 1,430676558
Rudolf Garski 12 1 1,543959311
Rudolf Garski 10 1 1,430676558
Rudolf Garski 12 1 1,543959311
Scott Gomes 10 1 1,430676558
Selen Turkay 10 1 1,430676558
Selen Turkay 20 1 1,861353116
Selen Turkay 10 1 1,430676558
Sergio G. 22 1 1,92057266
Sergio G. 17 1 1,760374428
Sergio G. 33 1 2,172502297
Shawn Stanley 10 1 1,430676558
Simon Reed 12 1 1,543959311
Simon Reed 17 1 1,760374428
Simon Reed 18 1 1,795888947
Simone Longobardi 10 1 1,430676558
Simone Longobardi 14 1 1,639738513
Slaven Karakas 10 1 1,430676558
Stephen Sing 15 Continental 5 8,413030972
Stewart MacLeod 17 1 1,760374428
Pierre Tran-Van 22 NC 3 5,761717981
Sven Helmer 10 1 1,430676558
Sylwester Dziembowski 12 1 1,543959311
Szabolcs Toth 10 1 1,430676558
Teemu Sainomaa 13 1 1,593692641
Teemu Sainomaa 10 1 1,430676558
Thiago Campos 13 1 1,593692641
Thomas Solway 19 1 1,8294828
Tiago Brum 15 1 1,682606194
Timothée Daudé 23 1 1,948192093
Timo Rekola 12 1 1,543959311
Timo Rekola 17 1 1,760374428
Timo Rekola 14 1 1,639738513
Timothée Daudé 22 ECQ 2 3,841145321
Todd Holland 10 1 1,430676558
Todd Holland 12 1 1,543959311
Tomas Varga 19 1 1,8294828
Tomas Wallmur 10 1 1,430676558
Tomasz Ceglowski 10 1 1,430676558
Tomasz Izydorczyk 18 1 1,795888947
Tomasz Izydorczyk 21 1 1,89166815
Tomasz Izydorczyk 20 NC 3 5,584059348
Tomasz Izydorczyk 12 1 1,543959311
Tomasz Izydorczyk 18 1 1,795888947
Tomasz Kowalewski 38 NC 3 6,780478076
Tomasz Pietkiewicz 15 1 1,682606194
Tomrs López Jiménez 26 1 2,024369199
Tomrs López Jiménez 25 1 2
Tony Wedd 18 1 1,795888947
Tuomas Nyberg 11 1 1,489896102
Tuomas Nyberg 13 1 1,593692641
Tuomas Nyberg 19 1 1,8294828
Viktor Lazarev 13 1 1,593692641
Ville Kaijasaari 23 1 1,948192093
Ville Kaijasaari 21 1 1,89166815
Ville Kaijasaari 18 1 1,795888947
Ville Kaijasaari 17 1 1,760374428
Vincent Ripoll 10 1 1,430676558
Xavier Bourgoin 19 1 1,8294828
Yannick Gibert 10 1 1,430676558
Yannick Gibert 56 ECQ 2 5,002183259
Yannick Gibert 26 1 2,024369199