TWDA Analysis
23 Jul 2018 09:17 - 23 Jul 2018 09:18 #89222
by elotar
NC Russia



Replied by elotar on topic TWDA Analysis
I think here is a place to remind community, that idea to ban Dreams, not because of power level or some annoying effect, but to open 2-3 slots for other masters in like half of archetypes, exists.






Last edit: 23 Jul 2018 09:18 by elotar.
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26 Jul 2018 12:27 #89362
by skimflux
Replied by skimflux on topic TWDA Analysis
I've updated the files - some corrections were made (Ghouled > Ghouled Street Thug, Conceal > Concealed Weapon, etc). You can download them from the links earlier in the thread.
I also kept tinkering and built a more complete data model, so now I can get results such as Cards used by Set:
This table shows the percentage of Library cards (I'll do Crypt cards eventually) introduced in a certain set that have been used in tournament decks. The first column is for the whole TWDA, the second is for the past 5 years - so you could say the first number is the overall impact of the expansion on tournament decks, and the second it's 'staying power'.
I think the fact that the Jyhad base set remains usable reflects that there's been little power creep over the years - you would expect these cards to be replaced by better versions over the years otherwise. All 5 of the VTES cards also remain relevant (mainly Archon Investigation though).
On the opposite side, the initial expansions: Dark Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, and Final Nights have quite poor ratios by either count.
The VEKN expansions have fairly poor usage ratios, but I hesitate to read too much into it given the circunstances.
I still have some cleanup to do on the file, I'll share it again once I'm done.
I also kept tinkering and built a more complete data model, so now I can get results such as Cards used by Set:
VTES | 100% | 100% |
Camarilla Edition | 93% | 53% |
Jyhad | 92% | 74% |
Third Edition | 92% | 72% |
Bloodlines | 90% | 53% |
Sabbat War | 90% | 56% |
Tenth Anniversary | 90% | 80% |
Gehenna | 88% | 64% |
Nights of Reckoning | 85% | 58% |
Black Hand | 84% | 50% |
Lords of the Night | 80% | 64% |
Sabbat | 79% | 57% |
Kindred Most Wanted | 78% | 55% |
Anarchs | 77% | 45% |
Keepers of Tradition | 77% | 60% |
Legacy of Blood | 76% | 48% |
Heirs to the Blood | 75% | 55% |
Danse Macabre | 75% | 75% |
Ancient Hearts | 74% | 37% |
Final Nights | 74% | 41% |
Promo | 73% | 46% |
Sword of Caine | 73% | 48% |
Twilight Rebellion | 73% | 45% |
Ebony Kingdom | 70% | 45% |
Dark Sovereigns | 66% | 54% |
The Unaligned | 64% | 64% |
Anthology | 50% | 50% |
Anarchs Unbound | 44% | 44% |
Lost Kindred | 22% | 22% |
This table shows the percentage of Library cards (I'll do Crypt cards eventually) introduced in a certain set that have been used in tournament decks. The first column is for the whole TWDA, the second is for the past 5 years - so you could say the first number is the overall impact of the expansion on tournament decks, and the second it's 'staying power'.
I think the fact that the Jyhad base set remains usable reflects that there's been little power creep over the years - you would expect these cards to be replaced by better versions over the years otherwise. All 5 of the VTES cards also remain relevant (mainly Archon Investigation though).
On the opposite side, the initial expansions: Dark Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, and Final Nights have quite poor ratios by either count.
The VEKN expansions have fairly poor usage ratios, but I hesitate to read too much into it given the circunstances.
I still have some cleanup to do on the file, I'll share it again once I'm done.
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26 Jul 2018 12:37 #89364
by DJHedgehog
Replied by DJHedgehog on topic TWDA Analysis
Dark Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts and Final Nights are all really really bad. Like made by a monkey throwing darts kind of bad. Makes sense to me they'd be under-represented.
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26 Jul 2018 15:35 #89367
by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic TWDA Analysis
How do reprints factor into this? I feel like they should be excluded.
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26 Jul 2018 17:02 #89371
by skimflux
For each card I only count the first set it was printed on - so reprints count towards the original set.
Replied by skimflux on topic TWDA Analysis
How do reprints factor into this? I feel like they should be excluded.
For each card I only count the first set it was printed on - so reprints count towards the original set.
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26 Jul 2018 17:30 - 26 Jul 2018 17:49 #89373
by skimflux
DS and AH were pretty badly designed - AH gave us the original Tomb of Rameses III, Return to Innocence, Protect Thine Own, but also Mummify - and then FN was mostly the result of balancing against the previous cards.
At the time there was a general belief that the independents were underpowered just because they had too few cards to choose from, so the new cards were designed to the same power level (despite some protests from playtesters...)
Anyway, this only applies to Library cards - crypt-wise DS is actually the best expansion ever:
...and it has Arika in it!
(SW is higher at 100%, but it has fewer new crypt cards and a lower ratio over the past 5 years, DS is better overall)
[EDIT] I was curious on what were those missing 2% from DS - turns out it's Darius Styx, the only DS vampire not to feature on the TWDA. Maybe Hugh should have a crack at it?
Replied by skimflux on topic TWDA Analysis
Dark Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts and Final Nights are all really really bad. Like made by a monkey throwing darts kind of bad. Makes sense to me they'd be under-represented.
DS and AH were pretty badly designed - AH gave us the original Tomb of Rameses III, Return to Innocence, Protect Thine Own, but also Mummify - and then FN was mostly the result of balancing against the previous cards.
At the time there was a general belief that the independents were underpowered just because they had too few cards to choose from, so the new cards were designed to the same power level (despite some protests from playtesters...)
Anyway, this only applies to Library cards - crypt-wise DS is actually the best expansion ever:
Set | AllTime | 5 yrs |
Sabbat War | 100% | 72% |
Dark Sovereigns | 98% | 82% |
Sabbat | 97% | 80% |
Legacies of Blood | 96% | 81% |
Final Nights | 95% | 58% |
Bloodlines | 95% | 55% |
Nights of Reckoning | 95% | 75% |
Jyhad | 94% | 64% |
Ancient Hearts | 91% | 64% |
Black Hand | 91% | 70% |
Camarilla Edition | 90% | 66% |
Third Edition | 89% | 76% |
Gehenna | 86% | 50% |
Sword of Caine | 84% | 68% |
Kindred Most Wanted | 84% | 54% |
Lords of the Night | 83% | 63% |
Keepers of Tradition | 83% | 64% |
Anarchs | 80% | 61% |
Twilight Rebellion | 80% | 50% |
Ebony Kingdom | 75% | 65% |
Heirs to the Blood | 74% | 45% |
Danse Macabre | 68% | 68% |
Promo | 67% | 60% |
The Unaligned | 47% | 47% |
Anthology | 20% | 20% |
Anarchs Unbound | 13% | 13% |
Lost Kindred | 9% | 9% |
...and it has Arika in it!

(SW is higher at 100%, but it has fewer new crypt cards and a lower ratio over the past 5 years, DS is better overall)
[EDIT] I was curious on what were those missing 2% from DS - turns out it's Darius Styx, the only DS vampire not to feature on the TWDA. Maybe Hugh should have a crack at it?

Last edit: 26 Jul 2018 17:49 by skimflux.
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