Bleed vs Burn

I am failing to communicate it seems...

@Khormag, @narpassword:

I think burning pool can be done in more fun, interesting, creative ways.

The cards you guys named are some of the more powerful and iconic ones:

* Constant Revolution - Burn X pool during unlock where X is number of counters on CR
* Anarch Revolt - Burn 1 pool during unlock
* Antediluvian Awakening - Burn 1 pool during unlock
* Smiling Jack - Burn X pool during unlock where X is number of counters on SJ
* Curse of Nitocris - Burn 1 pool during unlock
* Judgement: Camarilla Segregation - Burn 1 pool during unlock

Most of the cards that burn pool are Masters, Political, or disciplineless in some form. Pool is very abstract flavor-wise, and most cards that I see don't help paint a picture about what these vampires are doing. Like, why does Aching Beauty burn pool?

I think Fame is interesting because its not so straight forward. The same goes for Tension In The Ranks. I also think highly of Army of Rats, Contagion, Burnt Offerings, and Diabolic Lure. Extortion is a cool card. So is Victim of Habit. Precision is underpowered but it has a neat idea behind it - a kind of gameplay that could be fun AND actually win.

Perhaps I'm being overly harsh on KRC. When I say KRC is a glorified +2 bleed, I mean because the result is virtually the same, but more work is required. Your minion declares the action, there is the stealth/intercept check, then the referendum happens, and if all of that is successful, your prey now has 3 less pool. Fortunately, what makes KRC interesting is the referendum part. However, the result is immediate pool loss for your prey. Now, consider the implications if KRC said:

"If successful referendum, steal all Mortal retainers and allies target player controls unless that player chooses to contest them with you. If they choose to contest, turn this card facedown. It represents each of the contested Mortals together. The contest only costs you 1 pool."

This is a whole new card, and it may very well be a bad card, but the effect it has on the board state and the way in which it burns pool, the way it functions, is different than hitting someone for 3.

Enticement has the same "problem" as KRC does, IMO. I mostly like the card, but functionally its a bleed for 3 or 4. At least it has things that make it unique: Costs blood, needs Serpentis, needs the Edge, restricts bleeding for the end of the round.

I guess I'm asking to see more conditional and varied forms of pool damage. And more flavorful.

Try this:

[Cardname]

Only usable during an equip action. If this action succeeds at 3 or more stealth, your prey burns half the cost (rounded up) of the equipment in pool instead of you. You may play action modifiers granting +stealth now, even if not needed.

[Cardname]

OR Put this card in play. The first time you look at a card or cards in your prey's hand during your turn, that player burns 1 pool. You can burn only 1 pool each turn with [cardname] cards.

Breaking & Entering

Lock a Location. That Location doesn't unlock during its controller's next two unlock steps. That player burns 1 pool.
Lock a Location. That Location doesn't unlock during its controller's next unlock step and its text box is considered blank. That player burns 1 pool.

Enticement inst interesting as an alternatice to bleed because of its similar result, its interesting because of the implications behind it not being a bleed:

you can use it with the same minion you just bled with if you manage to unlock.
you can use it to oust a stubborn flicker/bleed reducer who isnt able to block


Im not sure what your examples add to the game other than exactly the same 'burn pool' that you seem to have an issue with - albeit with highly convoluted and unlikely to happen conditions.

you ask 'why does aching beauty' force you to burn a pool flavour wise...

but why, if i equip my AR at more stealth are you paying for half of it all of a sudden?

why have something as confusing as breaking and entering when you could burn the location (or steal it) and then get rid of it permanently and stick to hitting your prey in other way?
(or if youre gangrel, play rewilding to burn the location and 2 pool)

LivesByProxy wrote:

Pool is very abstract flavor-wise, and most cards that I see don't help paint a picture about what these vampires are doing. Like, why does Aching Beauty burn pool?

Because the Toreador with Aching Beauty is so influential, cunning, and and charismatic that, even if you block them, they will still find some alternative way to chip away at your influence and resources? The interaction between burning pool and Aching Beauty paints a fine picture in my mind.

It's true that many of garfields cards are flavor light. He is good a creating game concepts and then filling the available game space but lacking in balance, flavor, etc.

Influence is so abstract that there is no lore reason potence couldn't have +3 bleed modifiers. And how the hell does deflection work? How does the vampire have foreknowledge? Master spam? Might as well just have 12 cap vampires.

Mewcat wrote:

And how the hell does deflection work? How does the vampire have foreknowledge?.

Unlike auspex flick - which feels like foreknowledge (or misdirection with some telepathy..ahem), I always thought of dominate flick to be something like 'you thought you were telling your minion what to do but HA! it was ME ALL ALONG!

(only usable after blocks declined, because you wouldn't block yourself =p).

So we are to assume u just dominate all minions all the time? How u know what I'm doing and change it both? Seems pretty sketchy.

Then we just use blind, deaf, or foreigners and no dominate.