file The future of V:TES

14 Sep 2012 17:09 #36824 by Daidalos
Replied by Daidalos on topic Re: The future of V:TES
My initial question was: will the new reprints be distinguishable from the old "originals"? Or: when reprinting Esmeralda, will the old design be used? Will the edition symbol be used? I also never could play decks like Baltimore Purge Ezmeralda and I am thrilled by the prospect of playing it one day. So print the cards, print them cheap, print them on demand single-wise, sell them in boosters, make the game available to anyone - just respect the game's history by making the new generation slightly different.

"I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock
:trem: :aus: :dom: :tha:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

14 Sep 2012 17:20 - 14 Sep 2012 17:23 #36825 by Soonerborn
Replied by Soonerborn on topic Re: The future of V:TES
Yes! Preach it Reverend!

New players quit games when they can't get cards! When they can't build the decks they want to without dropping a lot of money or get hosed on trades (by longtime veterans with huge collections). Yes yes yes.

A true print on demand model will sell cards. I'm argueing you'll move more p.o.d. units if you allow people to select what they buy than if you try to push a dead CCG model. The players I know would participate if allowed to choose and will not buy anything that is 'random'. These are players who are alraady prepared to quit and in some cases newer players who joined late in the set releases (KoT and later) who feel abandoned. Not to mention the few players who have shown interest since the game went out of print, they're like, "it's a cool game, too bad it's dead".

Give them the ability to build decks please.

And rather than 'boosters' for limited play why not put together large 'draft stock' packages that are pre-sorted for booster-style draft (vamps to library sort) and will cover X number of players (5 per?). These could easily be sorted for elder draft or whatever. The options are boundless really. Cam draft set, Sabbat draft set, Indie clans, Laibon, combined sets, etc. Combine draft stocks to tailer the event. Draft text could be expanded!

There's an oppotunity to improve the community here. Be good to the fans, especially the new fans, and I think you'll see better returns on this project. Reward loyalty IMO.
Last edit: 14 Sep 2012 17:23 by Soonerborn.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eius P, Mimir

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

14 Sep 2012 21:12 #36841 by LunaSlave
Replied by LunaSlave on topic Re: The future of V:TES
I'm of sort of a mixed mindset about the whole thing. I LOVE the idea of print-on-demand particularly if everything is available...however, one of the reasons I was able to get the game going so strong locally in a relatively small city where it might be expected that there was no V:TES scene at all, was that I was able to get my local brick-and-mortar gaming and comics store to carry a variety of V:TES stuff, and generally the players would buy through him instead of online, which naturally made him much more enthusiastic about promoting the game in concert with I don't see how I could recreate that with this business model. I know I'm in the minority most likely, it seems most just bought their cards online for cheaper, which makes sense, but buying local did allow for more promotional opportunities here.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

14 Sep 2012 21:45 #36843 by ReverendRevolver
Not everyone is that fond of buying online and waiting. I'm sure that some companies buying and reselling pod product can/ will happen, since patomic is the only distributor with vtes stock and at least One shop I talked to locally that just opened said they might even order boxes from rose-tatu productions because they know vtes sells almost like mtg in Newark.

the whole system is still not a garuntee, but among the plethora of things pod could mean, retailers can order vtes product they know they can move, making it at least hypothetically lower risk than before, where NoR collected dust and people would keep asking about backstop of cam or shipments of something new.

there's spirit potential for the pipeline as well as the players.

off topic, I'm not planning on or advocating contacting him, but does anyone know if Richard Garfeild is aware of our situation/ supports our efforts?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

16 Sep 2012 02:14 #36913 by Mimir
Replied by Mimir on topic Re: The future of V:TES
Forgive me if my English isn't enough to deliver my thoughts; it's not my first language.

I am a prospective new player. You may check at my profile that I first registered at this forum about 7 months ago. At the time, I discovered Jyhad and thought it was a pretty cool game. A group of close friends and I like a variety of games, especially multiplayer. So, I thought, Jyhad could be a hit. There were, to my surprise, many players where I live, and also a fairly healthy meta in my country (Brazil).

After trying the game for some weeks and even buying some cards, I couldn't recommend it to anyone. In fact, I could dissuade some guys from trying Jyhad. Most then started playing other rip-off games (i.e. CCGs), such as M:tG. Some (including the rest of my group) started playing A Game of Thrones LCG, which isn't really better is terms of business model. The reason is more or less simple: deceptive pricing in a so called "competitive" game is ludicrous. It's not even the randomness that is the worst part, but the artificial scarcity to benefit collectors. The secondary market isn't even an excuse, because trusting collectors to regulate prices which are in their interest isn't what wise people would consider "fair". The very existence of a secondary market marks an unfair model, characterized by the interests of few collectors against the growth of the game. Fools who have spent great deals of money on cards which they don't want to see devalued - even though the game suffers from it. Which is a shame, because this is a great game.

Imagine an alternate world, more beautiful and with smarter people than our own, in which there aren't random packs or secondary markets for "competitive" games. All profit will go to the printers, which should make the game viable and the player base happy (because players don't want to be ripped off, right?). It means there won't be a CCG giant forcing you to spend lots of money to stay competitive and to enjoy a hobby. People would laugh at those who play roulette as a means of acquiring the tools of a game. Nobody would stand the fact that those with deep pockets have an advantage over those who don't - because this happens in life in general, but not in games. Games are supposed to be fun and accessible. Right? If anyone remembers the M:tG World decks, you'll see how obscene the CCG model is. You have a great deck, one which gives any player a chance to see how the "real game" plays without dropping a lot of cash into it, but that isn't tournament legal because any game that doesn't require hundreds of dollars to enjoy (and compete) is degenerate. In my opinion, at least, any game not letting you buy exactly what you want or need shits on the very spirit of competition. It's offensive, at least to me. To illustrate: imagine if M:tG continued selling random boosters, but also a print-on-demand $0,50 per card model, through which you could build $30 competitive decks. What would attract more players? Players only buy random boosters and tolerate a secondary market because they can't stand the fact that all the money they spent was useless. They sit on their collections like chickens hatching eggs.

Someone is going to mention all-common decks. Please, don't. Instead of spending time trying to prove how it's theoretically possible to play affordable decks, imagine how it actually damages the game. For those who have large collections, it's fine. But for most players, there is a large advantage in using expensive decks with better cards. The prices skew the metagame and make an artificial barrier of entry. "That's a cool deck, I should try it". Lots of money. "I don't know, I would rather play as *". More money. "I should only change some cards...". More money and/or trades. But new players don't have trade cards that veteran players (anyone who still plays Jyhad) want. As a fighting game enthusiast, I take some things for granted. You can buy a great game (Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, for instance, is a great game, despite the name) and play it for years. "I could try Fei Long"... Do it. "Guile has really easy execution, I should try him". Go ahead. You have all the tools available and they are very balanced against each other. The game holds up at very high levels of play, because it is a good game to begin with. But CCGs? Heh.

I guess you know what I'm saying. You want a good constructed card game? Put all the cards in a box, like Summoner Wars. You want a good drafting game? Put all the cards in a box, like 7 Wonders or Fairy Tale (or even Race for the Galaxy or Dominion). Do you want a hybrid CCG? It's simple: barely survive for some time until M:tG, AGOT LCG and WoW TCG shit all over you.

Random stuff obviously didn't work for Jyhad - and it's not attracting more players in the future, I'd say. I'm not sure attracting new players is a goal, anyway, because some collectors here want their collections to hold their "value". The value of a game, I should say, is to be playable, but I'm a little strange. If you want to collect, go collect things, not ruin a game. Stamps and butterflies seem to be a nice choice. Selling singles, with a fair price, could attract new players and direct pretty much all profit to the printers (why would you buy second hand cards when you can buy a complete deck for fair money?). It's better for new players, it makes it easier for people to try new decks and it motivates a nice business model.

Shadowfist, other multiplayer ex-CCG, just had a successful Kickstarter run to, as they say, "bring Shadowfist to a new generation". "Future expansions will be released as non-randomized packs (...)", they say. And that's great! That's something that may grow the player base, making the game relevant and fun. Even old "Mr. Suitcase" players backed the Kickstarter, because reviving a game and making it go forward and grow is the only way to both enjoy it and pretend those pieces of paper have value.

Sorry for a long rant, but, as someone who would like to get into this game, I thought I should post my opinion on this matter. I have even more to say, but I'm afraid I'd only repeat the gist of arguments I already made. In essence: if this project is successful, make it sell singles, so that players have control on what they get. If the game is good enough, it will hold any sorts of decks and will, if the price is fair, attract new players. If you don't get new players, the death of the game is inevitable. If you think a CCG model will hold up, well... The game would be in a better state if it did, right? This is a great opportunity to create an exciting model, one capable of things far beyond regular rip-off card games. You could build decks without an artificial card limit (what a LCG can't do), print cards with errata and so on. You could even, if the design team wants, make some past trash cards a little better, so that you could have even more variety in the metagame and more creativity. The possibilities are really cool.

I didn't want to sound as bitter as I did, but it's sad for me to like a game beyond my reach. It would be a little sad for me to discover that maybe this is not the game for me, and not because I don't like it.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Brum, Jussi, Joscha, Oskar, Dorrinal, Eius P

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

16 Sep 2012 05:54 #36922 by Joscha
Replied by Joscha on topic Re: The future of V:TES
Thank you for the rant, Lucas. I fine it most important to know, where the problems are to acquire new players.

I, as a "Mr Suitcase", am proud of the quantities of good cards I collected through the 18 years of playing. It took big efforts to get that many Deranges, Nephandi, Succubi, Disarms, ... I traded with half the world back in the old times, sending letters to Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, the USA, heck, even to the Philippines to trade cards.

I enjoyed that times very much. But times are changing. Many players don't want to invest that huge amounts of money in CCGs anymore. And many players don't play "real" games anymore and are lost to Onlinegames. So I think it's time for a change.

Clearly new players can't lay their hands on many cards they would like to get. So the print on demand-thing is a good idea IMHO. Think about a deck, make a list and buy it online to get excactly what you want. Sounds great for new players if you ask me. I'd find it much easier that way to recruit new players as I can always tell them: "If you like my deck just buy it online and you can play it too" or something similar. I think I like that even if that means my card stocks lose its value. That fact doesn't hurt much because I never thought about selling it anyway :) .

Baron of Frankfurt
The following user(s) said Thank You: jhattara, Brum, Juggernaut1981, CryWolf, Eius P, Mimir

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.073 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum