Combat sequence and prevention
Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes."
Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.
The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution.
Please quote the relevant part.
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Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes."
Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.
The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution.
Please quote the relevant part.
Short: Rulebook says combat has seven steps and references strikes in plural in one step before damage resolution in following step. Englanti ei ole kaikille äidinkieli vaan saattaa aiheuttaa väärinkäsityksiä mikäli kääntäjä ei osaa kääntää sanamuotoja oikein.
Long; ass ramble, sorry in advance.
I'm assuming they're referring to this part;
www.vekn.net/rulebook/4-detailed-turn-sequence#combat with the rulebook's "combat sequence"
Combat Sequence
Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has seven steps:
1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen.
2. Determine Range: Use maneuvers to change the range to close or long.
3. Before Strikes: Play cards before strikes are chosen.
4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes.
5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.
6. Press: Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat.
7. End of Round: End of round cards and effects are played here.
where step number 4 is strike and step number five is damage resolution.
Note how this contradicts earlier years in spirit www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary where whole strike was encompassed inside 6.4.3 with prevent being part of strike resolution in 6.4.3.2 instead being it's own "step" with additional strikes being able to be gained at 6.4.3.3, clearly after the prevent.
HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT [6.4]
NOTE: Combat cannot occur between two minions with the same controller. [6.4]
NOTE: Combat can only occur between two ready minions. [6.4]
NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3]
NOTE: The only minion cards that can be played during combat are combat cards, and those can be played only by the minions involved in the combat.
Round begins.
NOTE: "As combat is entered" and "before range is determined" effects can only be used in this step (the former only in the first round).
Determine (set) range. Each round begins at close range. [6.4.2]
Either minion may maneuver to change the range. Acting minion gets the first opportunity, as always.
A minion cannot use maneuvers to go to long range and to go to close range in the same round (that is, the minion cannot "cancel" his own maneuvers).
A strike card that has an optional maneuver may be played during this step.
If a weapon or a strike card is used to maneuver, the minion using the maneuver must use that card for his first strike of the round. [6.4.3.1]
NOTE: Only one weapon/strike card may be used to maneuver by a minion.
Strike. [6.4.3]
Minions announce their strikes (and targets, if applicable). [6.4.3.1]
Acting minion announces strike and target first. [6.4.3]
A ranged strike can target the opposing minion's retainer if the range is long. [6.4.7]
Strike modifiers must be played now (or earlier) to be effective. [RTR]
Resolve strikes. [6.4.3.2]
Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously.
NOTE: Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-retainer cards on him. [6.4.5]
Strike: Combat Ends. [6.4.5] (go to step E). Any other effect from this strike is applied after combat ends (except unlocking, which is normally done before combat ends by card text).
Any strike done with first strike. (resolve steps b,c before moving on to step iii). [6.4.5]
Any other strikes. (resolve steps b,c)
Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the strikes are both of the same type (from step a).
NOTE: Strikes are only effective at close range, by default. [6.4.3.2]
Inflict damage. Damage isn't handled until step c. [6.4.6]
Destroy equipment. Burn one equipment card on the opposing minion. [6.4.5]
Steal equipment. Move one equipment card from the opposing minion to this minion. [6.4.5]
NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used on the round it is stolen.
Steal blood. Removes blood/life from the opponent and places it on this vampire. Blood in excess of this vampire's capacity is burned immediately. Stolen blood may be used in step c. [6.4.5]
Combat Ends. End combat. This effect works at any range. [6.4.5]
Dodge. See note to (2.a) above.
Prevent damage and then resolve any unprevented damage (VII).
Combatants have the option to gain additional strikes. [6.4.3.3]
Resolve steps 1-2 above for each additional strike. [6.4.3.3]
Presses. Each round defaults to "end combat". [6.4.4]
Either minion may press to change the conclusion of the round (which is either "to end combat" or "to continue to another round"). Acting minion gets the first opportunity, as always.
A minion cannot use presses to continue and to end in the same round (that is, the minion cannot "cancel" his own presses).
Round Ends. [6.4.4]
Apply any end-of-round effects.
If the press step ended with "to continue", then another round begins (Go back to step A).
Combat Ends. [6.4.7]
Now to my understanding this is just matter of new rulebook's text being less then optimal in conveying how damage is not it's own step that happens after all strikes (note the plural, that might throw some non-native speakers off, after all two strikes (one from each, a pair), three strikes (one from each, one additional from one) and twenty additional strikes are all strikes instead singular strike.) I would include it to be one of those things that was thrown along the baby and the bathwater and was so obvious for proof readers that it's only now being lifted up as issue as we all *know* how to play the game.
It does not help that the correct road requires piecing together separate parts in the rulebook by combining;
... Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. One strike from each minion is considered a “pair”.
ADVANCED RULES
Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes. If only one minion has additional strikes these are resolved on their own after the normal pair of strikes.
During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then their opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects). ...
for Advanced Rules box with "after normal pair of strikes".
and
Resolve Strike: The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. Most strikes are effective only at close range, unless the strike is identified as ranged, does “R” damage, or is a defensive strike such as dodge or combat ends. Ranged strikes and strikes that do “R” damage can be used at any range, close or long.
When a minion or retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means), they must burn blood or life, as appropriate (see Damage Resolution). Note that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved. This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately.
This is true at any point during combat, not just during strike resolution.
for "The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. ... When a minion or retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means), they must burn blood or life, as appropriate (see Damage Resolution). Note that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved. This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately."
and
ADVANCED RULES
If a strike card is cancelled, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card.
Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual.
Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat. This rule is reminded on those cards by the “(limited)” card text.
for "Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary."
and
5. Damage Resolution
Damage resolution has two steps: prevent damage and mend damage.
First, the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage. These damage prevention cards are played one at a time until all the damage is prevented or until the minion chooses not to play any more. Any unprevented damage is successfully inflicted. The damage is then mended, if the victim is a vampire, or burns life counters, if the victim is an ally or a retainer.
for "5. Damage Resolution Damage resolution has two steps: prevent damage and mend damage."
to realize that whole concept of amount of steps in combat is fluid, as while one part of rulebook claims with it's combat sequence claims there are seven steps, step number five suddenly devices to add more steps in. And that like in any stairway, it's natural to move up and down the steps, which has not been at any point worded in the rulebook as the wording instead simply says "see Damage Resolution" which in nowhere in it states one can go "back" to previous steps to gain "additional strikes"
This can lead to misunderstanding where one mistakes requirement to resolve all strikeS from combatants as happening on the 4th step of combat with results that are then tallied at step 5.
Easy fix is to remove whole step 5 from combat sequence and place damage resolution where it should be at the end of every strike resolution with additional entry part covering things like Outside the hourglass or Wendell Deburton etc in "www.vekn.net/rulebook/8-glossaries" stating "Damage: Inflicted Damage needs to be handled before game can move onwards." That enables cutting down the two "Advanced rules" part regarding additional strikes into one that is placed logically *after* the combat damage prevention to show the new players they need to first handle the first pair of strikes, damage prevention and everything, before they can gain additional strikes that are handled in the combat sequence step 4.
Or just update the detailed play summary to match 2025 VEKN rules so it can be tossed as "If/then/else/elseif and so forth" for where people do not need to ponder how rulebook's text is interpreted when translated but can follow simple steps with www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/82396-queued-combats?start=0#114683 being good example. But it will not remove the possibility of the whole combat sequence step mistake being repeated, so both would be preferable.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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So far, so good. The resolution of the strikes happens before the damage resolution step.Short: Rulebook says combat has seven steps and references strikes in plural in one step before damage resolution in following step.
The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything. For clarity (because strike resolution and damage resolution are handled sequentially), it is listed as its own step "5. Damage resolution".Note how this contradicts earlier years in spirit www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary where whole strike was encompassed inside 6.4.3 with prevent being part of strike resolution in 6.4.3.2 instead being it's own "step" with additional strikes being able to be gained at 6.4.3.3, clearly after the prevent.
In the detailed-play-summary, they are listed in two different sequential steps (not showing in your quote because you lost the bullet points): "6.4.3.2.b Apply effects of strike(s)." and "6.4.3.2.c Prevent damage and then resolve any unprevented damage".
Given the context, and the additional rule "Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes.", it is clear what "strikes" mean here. We could enforce the use of "pair of strikes", but it is not necessary.Now to my understanding this is just matter of new rulebook's text being less then optimal in conveying how damage is not it's own step that happens after all strikes (note the plural, that might throw some non-native speakers off, after all two strikes (one from each, a pair), three strikes (one from each, one additional from one) and twenty additional strikes are all strikes instead singular strike.)
It's hard to guess why people read it wrong. But given it's the first time someone reads it this way, I don't think it's an issue. If the reader has issues with English, the best is to redirect them to the translated rulebook.This can lead to misunderstanding where one mistakes requirement to resolve all strikeS from combatants as happening on the 4th step of combat with results that are then tallied at step 5.
I don't think it needs fixing, but in any case, you can suggest rulebook changes there: github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024Easy fix is ...
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Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes."
Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.
The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution
Simple thing to understand here - damage is dealt as part of strike resolution (step 4). But no blood counters are moved yet. In the next step (step 5), you either prevent that damage, or burn blood to heal the damage. Damage itself doesn't instantly mean burning blood counters. Healing / mending the damage does. And after both these steps are done, you get to gain additional strike(s).
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- KoRneeshon
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The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything.
Except the rules as written don't say that. It mentions damage resolution, but I dont see mention that each strike resolution has its own damage resolution window. Making damage resolution its own step further emphasizes the idea that these are handled sequentially instead of together.
Please quote the relevant section where it says each damage inflicted opens a damage resolution window? The rules say that damage must be mended, but it doesn't say when. Therefore the original question about whether all strikes are resolved first before mending the damage is sound.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
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