Paying the Cost of Villein

Smaul wrote:

To cancel a card is not the same as cancelling an "effect"

It actually is. [LSJ 20040608] .
The ruling was for all cards that don't read "no cost is paid".
Here's an example (same thread as the one I linked just above:
[LSJ 20090601]
Other example:
[LSJ 20100718] Paying the cost of a card cancelled by Santaleous

I'll make this part clearer in the next RTR.


@Juggernaut: There is no difference between "cancel a card as it is played" on Santaleous' cardtext, and "cancel a card as it is played" on Direct Intervention. So there is no difference on the way the cost is handled in each case (that is: refer to cardtext).

I think the rulebook doesn't read "You can't play a card if you can't pay its cost" because that's what "cost to play a card" means. And I see no reason to revert this.


DI only cancels the effects of a card played. It doesn't cancel the "played" aspect of the card.
For instance, if someone DI's your Conditioning, you can't play a second one, per the Action Modifiers definition - Rulebook 1.6.3.2 .
If somone DI's your Immortal Grapple or Carrion Crows, you can't play a second one, etc...

Pascal wrote:

Maybe it's clearer if I make a short list of how play / pay / resolve [and eventually replace ] works depending on the cardtype. This list follows the classic Golden Rule of Cardtext (if the cards says otherwise, it takes precedence - for instance Wake with Evening's Freshness isn't replaced until untap phase):
["->" represents the existence of a window, "+" represents simultaneity]

1 - Play (and announce terms) => pay+resolve+replace: Masters, action modifiers, reaction cards, non-strike combat cards, reflex.
2 - Play (and announce terms) => replace => pay+resolve: Action cards.
3 - Play (and announce terms) => pay+replace => resolve: Strike cards.


Using logic of cards of type #2 for cards of type #1 (or of cards of type #3 for cards of type #2, contradicting the Bima+Govern clarification) is not recommended.

Using logic of cards type 1
I play a pentex announce the target, Santaleous cancels as played, I really have a big trouble understanding why you keep paying the cost, really. I've read LSJs thread, but a simple no answer is not what I really like to see. Is this what you wrote incorrect or somehow different for Santaleous?

With the expression "effect" I wanted to mean, another thing, I just couldn't find a propper world. "Effect" was refered to things like: referendum, strike, blood hunt... I don't know if it´s seen what I mean.

I'm working on the next rules release, but you should start considering that a canceled card is treated as if it has no cardtext. Simply remove all the text inside the box. A canceled card has no effect.
What remains is:
- name (can't play a second Conditioning or IG)
- requirements (and how the card was played - sup', inf', out' - can't play a second sup' Outside the Hourglass)
- targets, if any
- cost (which is paid unless explicitely written)


For instance, here is the DI'd Conditioning:
Name: Conditioning
Requirements: dom
Type: Action modifier
[played at: DOM]
Cost: 1 blood [not paid with DI]
Text:


Here is the DI'd Wake with Evening's Freshness:
Name: Wake with Evening's Freshness
Requirements: -
Type: Reaction
Cost: -
Text: -
(notice that you replace it)


Here is the DI'd Majesty:
Name: Majesty
Requirement: Presence
Type: Combat
[played at: PRE]
Cost: 1 blood [not paid with DI]
Text: -
(DI'd Majesty doesn't declare your strike)

Here is the Power of All'd Pentex Subversion on a vampire with a Secure Haven
Name: Pentex Subversion
Requirement: -
Type: Master
[played on: vampire with a Secure Haven]
Cost: 2+1 pool
Text: -
(Power of All'd Pentex Subversion doesn't stay in play).

Here's an example of a Santaleous'd Villein on a vampire with 1 Villein:
Name: Villein
Type: Master
Master: Trifle (but remember that canceled Trfles don't give extra MPAs)
Requirement: -
[played on: someone with a Villein]
Cost: 1 pool [has to be paid]
Text: -

Here's an exampleof a Power of All'd Archon Investigation played on Lucia, the Perfect
Name: Archon Investigation
Type: Master
Master: Out of Turn [does still consume 1 MPA from next master phase]
Requirement: -
[Played on: Lucian, the Perfect]
Cost: 3 pool
Text: -

I understand how it works, I just don't really see the logic. Appart from being a faq, to cancelling meaning that a card is played only without text, I see it just strange. If rulemakers designed it that way, I´ll play it that way, but seems really strange.

This makes santaleous gorgeous as crazy bleeder. Bleed for 6 archon, cancel, the target pays 3 pool and he still gets the 6 bleed... amazing