check Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-11

03 Dec 2011 01:25 - 03 Dec 2011 01:25 #16905 by Pascal Bertrand

I really appreciate the "Ballot" change to Priscus votes. a very elegant change to clear up a lot of confusion when they interact with certain cards.


Yes, because the term "vote" had two meanings: Votes cast in the referendum (including the Priscus block's three votes) and votes cast in the Priscus subreferendum.

Three meanings. "Vote" was also used for "cast votes" (as in "A vampire voting against burns 1 blood"). I changed "vote" to a single usage.

I wonder if this changes how any cards actually function? I did some spot checks in Pascal's errata document, and it looks like everything works as you would expect it to: Prisci can be Bribed and and have their ballots Telepathically Counted, and they lose their ballot in a Free States Rant.

I tried to keep everything as it was. I have a list somewhere of the changed cards, with "relevant" rulings for each of them (but sometimes, they follow the same "Only usable before votes are cast" pattern).
I hope Scalpel's Tongue and Demonstration vs Priscus will be cases easier solved.

so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?

Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).
Last edit: 03 Dec 2011 01:25 by Pascal Bertrand.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Dec 2011 03:31 #16909 by AaronC

so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?

Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).


Err, "end of round" happens before "end of combat", at least according to the complete rules reference. Rotschreck (or any effect that ends combat)->end of round->end of combat. Taste of Vitae can't be ordered after superior Psyche!

I guess you might infer from LSJ's writing that end of round and end of combat are the same thing on rounds that end combat, but if so, it might be good to update the rules reference accordingly.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Dec 2011 06:27 - 03 Dec 2011 06:39 #16912 by prunesquallor
I'm ecstatic that Minion Tap is a useful card again, and is no longer just a poor man's proxy for Villein. I'll figure out and announce the details shortly, but I foresee sending out a free Minion Tap with every order from my store for a while as a celebration :)

And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2011 06:39 by prunesquallor.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Dec 2011 12:00 #16920 by Boris The Blade

And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.

Now the question is: how to give her a blood each combat without playing a card?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Dec 2011 14:33 #16924 by dude_PL

And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.

Now the question is: how to give her a blood each combat without playing a card?


sociopath or perfectionist should do the trick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
04 Dec 2011 09:53 - 04 Dec 2011 09:54 #16979 by Pascal Bertrand

so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?

Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).


Err, "end of round" happens before "end of combat", at least according to the complete rules reference. Rotschreck (or any effect that ends combat)->end of round->end of combat. Taste of Vitae can't be ordered after superior Psyche!

I guess you might infer from LSJ's writing that end of round and end of combat are the same thing on rounds that end combat, but if so, it might be good to update the rules reference accordingly.

I see your point. Similar to my "End of turn happens when the discard phase ends", but it's trickier to put in words.
Should probably say "Combat ends when a round with no next round ends". I might change that too, for clarity purposes.

Taste of Vitae will be orderable (?) with Psyche!
Last edit: 04 Dec 2011 09:54 by Pascal Bertrand.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Dec 2011 12:07 #17119 by Chaitan

]

Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:

1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
and/or
2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.


A card that was a staple in the TWDA for years is certainly not wallpaper. It was for a while when the ever present Villein hosed it, but now it has been restored to exactly what it was before. I am sure we are going to see it played a lot now again and also you don't need certain cards to win. Look at Matt Morgan, he can win with everything, because he just plays a lot better than you. Stop complaining and start learning.

That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.


It is interesting how one misinterpreted line can cause so much anger. I do appreciate the change. VEKN did a great job. The change to villein was one of the best out of all possible. It accomplished several things with the addition of a single word and all the other changes was just made so much sense it wasn't worth commenting.

I do agree that was I a bit liberal with the word wallpaper since I did state that there was a few scenarios it was usable in. Just like how On the Qui Vie replaced Forced/Wake they still find their way into some decks where the drawback of On the Que Vie can't be ignored. Just like Minion Tap will.

Although it is better than it was before just doesn't mean it is a perfect change. Villein is above any beyond a better card than Minion Tap.

With that said,

Why are you using a bunch of logical fallacies to prove your point?

If card X exist in 1000 tournament winning decks and after that card Y is printed which is better than card X in every possible way. That just mean card X had a glorious past but the future is card Y.

Also, player skill has nothing to do with card viability. I don't doubt Matt Morgan can beat anybody with a hand full of Twisting the Knife but that doesn't mean it is a competative card.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Dec 2011 13:20 - 05 Dec 2011 13:22 #17135 by fredsct

If card X exist in 1000 tournament winning decks and after that card Y is printed which is better than card X in every possible way. That just mean card X had a glorious past but the future is card Y.


You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed. Minion Tap is still better for any kind of design that requires reaping blood from the same minion over and over. An example would be some kind of deck that employed exactly one minion to play the role of "fatty" while another minion possessed superior Obeah and employed Renewed Vigor on the fatty over and over. And while it's true that Villein is a trifle, this may not matter if the Minion Tap/Villein choice are the only master cards being employed by the deck. And the hosing nature of the Villeins only matter when someone else at the table is using Villeins - which, with Blood Dolls, Vessels, Tributes, Boons, and Voter Caps in the game as other means of blood management, is not the case very frequently.

I'm not necessarily criticizing the change, here. The attraction of the two cards clearly isn't equal and I understand why people didn't like this. Still, the argument that Minion Tap had been completely hosed in the past is overstated. And the statement that Villein was better in every possible way is just plain wrong.
Last edit: 05 Dec 2011 13:22 by fredsct.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Dec 2011 14:27 #17138 by Chaitan

You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.


Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
05 Dec 2011 14:43 #17139 by fredsct

You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.


Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.


You'll have to forgive people for misunderstanding you. One would assume you were making the "generic argument" as a direct allegory to Minion Tap and Villein - which would be the common reason to employ such a rhetorical device. Even if the specifics do not apply in every detail, the usual sense of such argument is that they apply well enough to make your point. But they don't.

Johannes was saying that Minion Tap - used heavily in tournament winning decks for many years until Villien came along - cannot possibly be wallpaper now that Villien no longer affects it. Post change, we are now so far from the status of Villein being "better than Minion Tap" in any way, throwing such a statement around in this thread is completely irrelevant to the point he was made. The only thing Villein has over Minion Tap now is trifleness. Trifleness is a pretty significant thing but it doesn't turn Minion Tap into wallpaper.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.132 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum