Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013

brm130 wrote:

Adding "You may not play Villein" to LB's wording is convoluted and stupid?

Yes, it is. Just propose a wording, I need a laugh.

Doubly so once you factor in that Villein is not the only source of trouble with Lillith : there is also Minion Tap, and simply the fact it can generate absurd amount of blood. There were more than 100 totals pages of discussion on the topic of lillith, Villein, and other blood and pool creation cards.

brm130 wrote:

Democratization at least offers a discussion period. This just feels like a dissociated entity couldn't find a solution and gave up.

People talk of that (I.E. if Lillith Blessing should be banned) since more than one year, two if I recall correctly. Implying they were no discussion period seem curious in this regard.

Well, it don't seem curious if we suppose you're just hurt with the decision (which is debatable, and have been debated lengthy) and try to find any reason to negate it. But lack of consultation wasn't here ; it's just that the public consultation and the final decision didn't go the way you wanted.

Is there anything that create such a restriction right now ? Choosing the more complicated and convoluted way to do it seem stupid.

Into thin air is not convoluted, nor stupid and solves the problem of 2 card combo generating unconditionless +4 stealth (AND conditional -1 intercept), which is too much from my point of view. Then again, maybe I am stupid, and same would not apply for braking Villein+LB combo. I'd have to remind that for comboing LB with Minion Tap would require an additional MPA, spending which IMHO would be balanced enough for LB effect. But then again, like most people around, I just sprout stupid ideas.

Then again, there are certain ways to put your words, and some of them are... stupid. Especially when giving someone with obviously low count of posts (thus maybe, just maybe, low experience) a know-it-all lesson with belittling included and being lazy enough not to back one's words. That might look... what is that word?..

Into Thin Air
Action Modifier
Obfuscate
Do not replace until your untap phase.
[obf] +1 stealth. Once this action, this vampire may burn 1 blood to give an ally or younger vampire -1 intercept. Into Thin Air and Lost in Crowds cannot both be played on the same action.
[OBF] As above, but for +2 stealth.

kombainas wrote:

Into thin air is not convoluted, nor stupid and solves the problem of 2 card combo generating unconditionless +4 stealth (AND conditional -1 intercept), which is too much from my point of view. Then again, maybe I am stupid, and same would not apply for braking Villein+LB combo. I'd have to remind that for comboing LB with Minion Tap would require an additional MPA, spending which IMHO would be balanced enough for LB effect. But then again, like most people around, I just sprout stupid ideas.

First part : I do believe that both Into Thin Air and Preternatural Strength are design fail, so there's that.

Second part, instead of saying "it could be done like ...", could you actually do it ? People can use them at different master phase without much problem. People can - and have - used Minion tap for the same thing without too much problem. And I will actually laugh if you propose to slap the Bahari trait to every vampire you play a Villein / Minion tap on.

Now, I don't care even one bit of the post count of anyone. I suppose people actually think their idea through at least a bit, which I believe is more than enough to see the problem of the idea here. Note that I didn't try to belittle the fact that he may have missed two years of discussion on the topic ; but they still exist and they are still evidences that it's not an autocratic idea taken without any kind of input.

What I find actually lacking from Pascal, is stating the exact problem with the LB, that is being solved by the ban and subsequent rewording. Without knowing that, there is, as you yourself stated, countless opinions about banning or not and most of them are well-backed and non-uniform. If Villein+LB were the problem, but not Minion Tap+LB, then doing explicit combobreaker might be ok way to fix it (if it is not considered bad design by Pascal), if it is (insert your scenario here), then (insert your solution) and so on. Not knowing the problem takes away possibility of constructive solution suggestions, which everyone is so eager to propose. Lack of a problem to solve is compensated by making the problems out or overexaggerating existing ones.

echiang wrote:

I agree that Lilith's Blessing is overpowered, but there are lots of overpowered cards (and plenty of cards more overpowered than Lilith's Blessing) and that doesn't necessarily justify banning.

One of the major issues is that Lilith's Blessing is banned when other more problematic cards are not.

For me, one of the issues is an underlying sense of "fairness" or "justice" (which may sound silly for a card game). But to illustrate with an analogy, think of crimes with varying degrees of culpability:

Except, this isn't how CCGs work. What is fun is far more important to the publishers than what is fair, as fun sells. For all that people bitch about power rares, for instance, people hate weak rares. And, so forth.

The more overpowered cards may not be touchable because people want to play with them more. Nevermind that the actual buying populace is different from people who post to forums, which produces some interesting disconnects on what is balanced and/or what is fun.

Then, while I'd happily ban a bunch of cards - Nights of Reckoning set, events, unique promos, 10th Anniversary only cards, and others - there are extremely anti-ban sentiments among CCG playerbases to where a lot of cards that should have been banned from day one will never get banned. See how much people want to talk about Lilith's Blessing for how much people dislike banning, even though the ban's effect on people is minor.

How hard do you think it would be to ban one of the "more overpowered" cards? Probably wouldn't happen, and so nothing would change, and we would still bitch about all of the same problem cards in the game.

I find LB to be fun, for me to play. Lilith is a babe. I'm all in favor of her blessings. I like grafting/forcing/upgrading disciplines as can be seen in a recent deck posted in the events subforum. But, is the game more fun with or without LB? Is it fun that the majority of my decks play LB, more than the number of decks that play Villein? Are the decks built around the card really more fun than the decks that become worse because they don't leverage the card as well or don't play the card at all?

People all of the time want to argue that such-and-such shouldn't be banned because it opens up possibilities that other cards don't. Sure. But, cards also close off possibilities by existing within card pools. The effect isn't direct, but it is prevalent, where a superior card or strategy makes other cards and strategies not worth playing. LB replaces a bunch of blood gain plays I have used. In fact, I was building a deck yesterday where not playing LB meant having to think about blood management differently and changed up master selection quite a bit.

Put another way, the recent complaints of staleness in the game are really complaints of lack of fun. You could print a million new cards, but if they had no impact on the environment because they all sucked, then the game would still be lacking in fun, even with greatly increased variety. That's not what would actually happen, but it points to the fact that staleness in CCGs also comes from having cards people like/play so much that other possibilities already available get squeezed out. Hmmm, kind of got off on a tangent for why banning has more benefit to CCGs than people give it credit for, which really isn't the topic here.

Wedge already brought up that it should be obvious how powerful the card is. And, I think some folks have brought up that it slows the game down, which may not be unfair, but is anti-fun, as the game is already too slow in many environments. I also find tracking Bahari is just another "accounting" aspect to the game, and I've become increasingly opposed to accounting in CCGs, as interaction should be the focus of games like this one (a reason to rein in masters and events, neither of which are interactive, by the way).

As for why V:TES managers may not want to publish comments about decisions, I think it has something to do with how little respect they are shown in comparison to managers of other CCGs when it comes to decisions, not because the playerbase doesn't respect the individuals (necessarily) but because the playerbase doesn't respect the authority level in the same way Magic players respect the authority of those who change the banned/restricted lists, etc.

Dear Ian,

Thank you for the informative post and thought-out response. I may not agree with everything that you said, but much of what you said makes a lot of sense (and even the stuff I disagree with makes sense) and provides a valuable perspective, especially given your wide expertise on so many CCG's. It is unique insights like these which made me greatly value your contributions when I consulted with you (back when I was IC Storyline Coordinator).

To briefly touch upon a few things:

ICL wrote:

Except, this isn't how CCGs work. What is fun is far more important to the publishers than what is fair, as fun sells.

Yes, fun is good and important. Though interestingly enough, that doesn't seem to prevent many publishers from printing non-fun cards. Not in the meaning of "boring" cards, but cards that are actually not fun to play against (NPE, or "negative play experience").

Then, while I'd happily ban a bunch of cards - Nights of Reckoning set, events, unique promos, 10th Anniversary only cards, and others - there are extremely anti-ban sentiments among CCG playerbases to where a lot of cards that should have been banned from day one will never get banned.

Of course for a lot of other CCG's, bannings are a lot less necessary due to natural set rotation. If you don't like a card and it isn't being banned, you often just need to wait a year or two and the card is gone anyway.

How hard do you think it would be to ban one of the "more overpowered" cards? Probably wouldn't happen, and so nothing would change, and we would still bitch about all of the same problem cards in the game.

Hard, but do-able. Just look at the case of Dramatic Upheaval and Kindred Restructure. (Yay for another point in relevancy! ).

Hypothetically, if Pascal were to ban Pentex and Anthelios, then yes there would be an initial uproar from some players. But it would eventually pass and many people would admit that it was a "good" decision.

I find LB to be fun, for me to play. Lilith is a babe. I'm all in favor of her blessings. I like grafting/forcing/upgrading disciplines as can be seen in a recent deck posted in the events subforum.

People all of the time want to argue that such-and-such shouldn't be banned because it opens up possibilities that other cards don't. Sure. But, cards also close off possibilities by existing within card pools. The effect isn't direct, but it is prevalent, where a superior card or strategy makes other cards and strategies not worth playing.

Yes, and many people argue that Pentex, Villein, Ashur Tablets, and Deflection also fit the bill.

LB replaces a bunch of blood gain plays I have used. In fact, I was building a deck yesterday where not playing LB meant having to think about blood management differently and changed up master selection quite a bit.

I agree that variety is good. As just one example, if LB were unique (say like Dreams) then that would affect its reliability and force you to restructure your deck differently.

Put another way, the recent complaints of staleness in the game are really complaints of lack of fun. You could print a million new cards, but if they had no impact on the environment because they all sucked, then the game would still be lacking in fun, even with greatly increased variety.

Well, there are people like you and me who see lots of underutilized cards from years of expansions and enjoy experimenting with them.

Plus, there are often hidden gems ("power combos") that exist and just haven't been exploited yet. (Archon NRA is the most memorable, and was completely missed by everyone for many, many years).

Thanks again for your valuable contributions in this thread ICL.